1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer

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It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.

Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.

Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?

The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.


Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)

Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.

ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?

I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.

From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.

Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.

The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?

The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.

But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.

Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?

Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.

You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?

They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.

I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?

They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.

Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way

How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?

Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.

However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.

Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.

* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.

Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:

On this day..

Possibly related executions:

8,544 thoughts on “1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer”

  2. Another question Kevin, how did bundys trial gain so much worldwide attention so quickly? as very few serial killers would. as i recall there were at least 250 news reporters from 5 continents watching the trial.

    well i suppose back in the 70s there hadnt been a trial with much drama as teds in those days. with him being the all american boy and all and defending himself i guess i can see it now.

    just interesting how he gained worldwide attention like no one since jack the ripper.

    Well i guess the recent Amanda Knox trial had a similiar international attention as it was broadcast a lot over here in the UK and Ireland.

    Thanks again Kev

  3. Barry–

    Yes, objects indeed. Those statements which Bundy made to Patchen are very revealing. There were six or seven in a grouping, and you can’t read them without knowing Bundy is, at least in this instance, being absolutely truthful.

  4. Hi All

    Well if i remember correctly Laurie, in ann rules “the stranger beside me”, i think she mentions about ted letting a pregnant hitchhiker free.

    Now either u used that story to say u were the hitchhiker or if u really were the hitchhiker u cant tell from the internet these days.

    Anyways Laurie what direction were u heading too when u were with bundy, i just want to know did bundy keep driving to the destination u wanted to go to. Ur lucky u mentioned u were pregnant or he might of turned the car off into the woods in a matter of minutes lol.

    And Kevin, i find that bundy quote “i didnt want to hurt anyone i knew” very intriguing. If bundy didnt know the victim they were literally nothing to him in his eyes. An object basically.

  6. Hi Kevin your book just arrived here today, early xmas present, it looks great really neat. Had to spend the day with family and I have been itching to get back and read it! Cant wait to get it started, will let you know what I think!

  7. Laurie–

    One last thing to think about: Bundy’s reference to “the hitchhiker” which he didn’t kill, was during his killing years – 1974 & 1975 -(I’m excluding his 1978 Florida murders) and not 1973. If your meeting was with him in either June or July of 1973, then he is speaking of someone else. This is not to say you couldn’t have encountered Bundy, but you couldn’t be the one he referred to in your aforementioned statement.

  9. I don`t mean to brag or anything, but we have 3 feet of snow in my town and it feels like a summer from the Finnish point of view. We had a barbeque party outside last night, lol. It`s only minus 55 Fahrenheits…

    Laurie: Truly an interesting story that you shared.

  14. KYGB–

    Yes, many Kentuckians are freaked out about snow. Frankly, I’ve always seen it as an opportunity to “do doughnuts” in an empty parking lot at night, LOL! But two feet of the stuff, well, I’d rather not have it, thank you.

  15. Well Kevin, I know all the native Kentuckians are freaked about a couple inches of snow. All the Kentuckians that have moved here from Wisconsin are hoping for a foot or more of snow, to go skiing with their dogs.

    Lauri, what posts are you referring to?

    We really don’t have a reference as to what post you googled?

    Tell us what is your reference point is, if you could.

  16. Well, Fiz, you and hubby need to take it easy and have a safe trip! Perhaps the weather will ease up a bit your way by the time you have to deliver your daughter back to school, lol!

    Here in the states, the east coast is about to be battered with as much as two feet of snow. Kentucky is going to luck out this time with only a couple of inches — unless our weather people are lying to us, he,he.

    Enjoy the holidays!

  17. Kevin it’s been hideously cold, and it’s actually warmer since it snowed last night. It’s snowing again and the clouds look like they mean it. We have to drive to Lincoln – three hours drive away – tomorrow to collect our daughter from uni. The country has ground to a halt, as usual!

  18. Hi all,

    Laurie, have you posted your story on another website cos ive read an encounter like this described elsewhere?

  20. Laurie–

    I mean no disrespect, as I believe you believe you had an encounter with Bundy. I can tell you this: Bundy purchased an old truck in 1974 for the move to Utah. Now, there is lots of information available to you concerning his doings in 1973; info that can be found in all of the Bundy books, including mine. I noticed you did not mention an exact date, but you’ll need to determine this, I would think. Then, once you discover Bundy’s activity (if it can be located for that day) you’ll have a better chance determining if your encounter was indeed with the infamous Ted Bundy.

    A thought: Just as there were many young women of the time with long, dark hair, parted in the middle. There were also lots of guys out there with “bushy” dark hair, etc. And besides, Bundy loved to hunt for women using his beloved VW, so I’m not so sure about the truck thing.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  22. So true, Fiz. You know, I don’t like to be rude to people, as I’m the one (at least at this site) that folks usually address their questions pertaining to Bundy. But when I see these things, I have to at least consider the truth behind the statement. That said, if I had a US dollar for every time someone has said something like that to me, I could retire! (Well, not really, but you get the point, LOL!)

    Say, is it cold where you are, and how’s the overall weather in the UK?

  25. Hey Vidor–

    Yes, you’re correct, Bundy would not have known Healy in an up-close and personal way; although, I suppose, we can’t rule out that he may have spoken to her in passing, as it were, prior to the abduction. Perhaps in a class at the University of Washington? Who knows?

    I do know that I copied Don Patchen’s personal notes when I was in Tallahassee, and Bundy told him that he could never hurt anyone he knows. And, of course, when he said hurt, he was referring to murder. So it makes sense he needed that type of distance from his victims to enable him to carry out his diabolical work.

  26. Hi Rob–

    Well, the Aime story is interesting, but I have my doubts about it, as stated above. However, it’s interesting to contemplate, as there are many things we will never know about Ted’s hunting of victims, etc.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  27. Rob,

    It is by no means definite that Ted Bundy was acquainted with Laura Aime. As I said, while Larsen’s book has a story in which Bundy knew Aime, the books by Rule and by Michaud & Aynesworth do not include this. Possibly those authors reached the same conclusion that Mr. Sullivan did, that the story wasn’t credible.

    Kevin,

    “Remember too, that it is highly possible Bundy knew (or at least had seen and encountered) Lynda Ann Healy on occasion.”

    We’re talking about different things, I think. Many people would agree that Bundy had seen her, stalked her, and entered that house specifically to get her. But there’s nothing to suggest that he KNEW her, in the sense that they’d had conversations and gotten acquainted.

  28. Hi Kevin,
    The recent info on the Laura Aime murder is something new to me.I never knew that Ted Bundy had acquainted himself(to the extent described) with Laura.

    By Ted Bundy’s own admission,all his victims were acquainted no more than 20 minutes to him.But..then again,the word TRUTH has never been Ted’s middle name.

    Regards,

    Rob.

  29. Here is something to think about: First, this is Bundy we’re talking about, so the unexpected and unlikely could very well be true about him in regard to this particular Aime story. That said, I don’t put a lot of stock in it, and that’s why I didn’t include it in the book. However (IMO)we can’t completely rule it out either, as there may be a sliver of truth in this report. Who knows?

    Remember too, that it is highly possible Bundy knew (or at least had seen and encountered) Lynda Ann Healy on occasion. It is also clear from what he told M&A that he had been to the house prior to entering it for the abduction, so it’s reasonable to assume that he knew who lived there. Personally, I believe he knew exactly who he was abducting on that night. But this is not to say that he knew Healy well, only that he knew her.

    Ah, the mysteries still surrounding this case, LOL!

  30. Vidor: –

    I was going to ask the same thing as well. It would seem that the witness (Beverige) did not go to the police authorities with her story or if she did, her suspicions were not taken seriously. I dont think the police would brush this information on the case to the side which makes me think she didnt report her suspicions at all. Maybe she didnt suspect him at the time Laura Aime disappeared but only after Bundy was first arrested and his cases were broadcast to the media that she came forward with her story.

  31. I have long wondered about that Laura Aime business. That story–the witness who saw Bundy in Aime’s company on multiple occasions–is told in Larsen’s book and was dramatized in the Mark Harmon TV movie based on the book. But there is not a peep of it in any of the other biographies. Why? As noted, it would have been a huge departure from Bundy’s MO; there is no evidence that he knew any of the other girls for longer than it took to coax them into his car. Why in the world would he kill an acquaintance of his that a witness could link him to? And why didn’t police zero in on Ted in the fall of 1974, if this story is true?

    I don’t get it.

  33. Hey KYGB–

    Well, I love Larsen’s book. As I said before, not meeting him (either by phone or in person) during my research was a bit of a downer. I think he died in 2001. Oh well.

    I find the Aime stuff you refer to very interesting. it may very well be true that Bundy had dealings with Laura prior to her abduction, but I found no one to substantiate this information. As such, I decided to go with her abduction alone, how it probably occurred, based on the best info the police had at the time. It’s kind of like the later testimony obtained from a witness who said he saw a man who fit Bundy’s description sitting behind Melissa Smith at the pizza place the night she disappeared. In this case I think it’s no doubt true (or at least it carries some weight), as she did disappear immediately afterward. But if someone were to have said they used to see Bundy there on occasion prior to that night, I would think it’s important, but perhaps not as significant as on the night Smith was taken. In any event, all these stories are interesting, in my view.

    P.S. Say, don’t forget to let me know when you’re coming through Louisville. We’ve got some coffee to drink, LOL!

  34. This little forum has kind of ground to a halt. Thought I would bring up something that I’ve wondered about for a number of years. In Larsen’s book, he uncovered some material in the murder of Laura Aime. Aime was murdered in Utah County on October 31, 1974. She was frequently visiting Lehi, Utah. The Aime case seemed to differ with Bundy’s usual MO. There were a some witnesses who had seen Bundy have contact with Aime prior to her murder. One witness, Marin Beverige, saw Bundy numerous times, curising her house when Aime was there visiting. Lehi was a small town and a youth hangout was the Brown Café in the main drag of Lehi. Bundy was seen cruising that place and would go in there to talk to Aime. Another witness, an employee at Brown’s Café also placed Ted at the diner.

    Beverige told of a particularly chilling incident at her house. Aime was there visiting, and Bundy pulled up in front of the place. Ted called her out and they had a conversation. When Aime returned from Ted’s car to the house, she was very rattled. When asked why she was so upset, she declined to comment. The night of Aime’s murder on Halloween night, 1974, Laura went to a party at Beverige’s home. There was a lot of drinking going on. Around midnight, Laura tried to get Marin Beverige to walk with her to Brown’s Café (about a block away) to get smokes. That was the last anyone saw of her until the discovery of Laura’s body in American Fork canyon.

    Marin Beverige felt that Ted had snagged Laura that night. Given his habit of cruising that area, especially, Brown’s Café, he would have pounced immediately upon spotting Laura walking by herself.

    Kevin, what was your take on the Aime killing? Did you find the evidence credible, or what was your feeling on this aspect of the case?

    I’d be interested in anybody else who had information on this incident in Ted’s history.

  35. Hi James–

    Dr. Lewis is no doubt a liberal, but her Jewishness does not make her so. I’ve known Jews who were liberal, and Jews who were conservative. A friend of mine from childhood (a Jew) recently passed away, and he was a conservative all his life. I recently spoke with his brother, and he considers himself “a rabid Republican” ! So it really depends on the individual.

    Now, anti death penalty folks are usually (but not always) very liberal socially. A funny thing I’ve always noticed from this crowd is their favorable feelings for abortion, but absolute abhorrence when it comes to state sanctioned killing. In other words, the killing of something innocent that is in the process of turning into a child is okay, but the killing of the exceedingly guilty and evil is a no,no. I don’t get it!

  36. Dr. Lewis is a liberal Jew who is anti death penalty. Her research is biased. She found every person she interviewed on death row to be mentally ill. Her goal was to get murderer’s death sentences over turned. She tried it with Bundy in 1987 and failed.
    The people in the Florida criminal court system used to laugh at her.
    Her research is tainted because of her personal agenda.

  37. The intial exchange between Bundy and Dr. Lewis is interesting:

    TB – “I am the most celebrated inmate on Death Row. I have had seven books written about me.”
    DL – “Well, I’m dyslexic, and I haven’t read any of them, so let’s start from the beginning.”

    (Source: “The Roots of Evil,” Myra McPherson, “Cosmopolitan,” Sept. 1989, p272+)

    What’s wrong with this picture?

  38. This from the Yale Medical magazine magazine 2007. Dorothy Lewis should have been mentioned in the list I made in comment 1310. She was definitely a last day visitor. I left the 2nd paragraph in the quote just to pull Kevin’s chain. Haven’t kidded him in a couple weeks.

    Quote on
    Lewis ’ childhood curiosity about humanity’s dark side launched her on a mission to understand the very people much of society would prefer to eliminate. Ted Bundy asked to see Lewis the day before his execution and even kissed her goodbye. “Everyone else wants to know what I did,” he explained. “You want to know why.”

    If violence is the most serious public health problem in the world, Lewis sees understanding killers as the key to devising a cure. The closest that Lewis comes to condemning the death penalty has less do to with arguments about justice and compassion than a thirst for answers. “How is it,” she asks in her memoir, “that we pour millions of dollars into Bundy books and the like, but are nevertheless willing to sacrifice further knowledge about him and his ilk in the interest of doing away with them?”

    Quote off

    Somebodies gotta kill ’em, Dot.

  39. Barry–

    I don’t know anything more than what her book states, and it is a good read. And yes, I believe she did claim to be the last woman to kiss him.

    See ya!

  40. i was reading a bit about the psychologist Dorothy Lewis and her interviews with Bundy, although i havent read the whole section about it in her book i got a glance at a few pages.

    She mentions that on her first interview with ted, ted freely talked about the murders and stuff, not sure if it was in the third person though. shen then says that on her last interview with ted he says “the man in front of you did not commit any murders” lol typical ted to say that, but she said she didnt question him on why then did he talk about murders in their previous meeting.

    Kevin do you know of any interesting things that came up from those interviews with Dorothy and Ted?

    oh and i believe i heard that ted gave dorothy a goodbye kiss on the cheek before she left and appartently dorothy went home and said i quote “im the last woman ted bundy kissed” lol

  41. That’s a good question, Carrie, and I’d like to know the answer myself. My initial guess would be no, and I didn’t run across anything in my research that pointed in this direction (it also wasn’t pertinent to what I was doing) . However, someone out there may have the answer, and if so, we may yet find out what occurred here.

  42. Liz last spoke about her relationship with Ted in her 1980 book. Given the fact that he lived another 9 years, I have always wondered if there had been contact between them during those years and she just never went public with it.

  43. Richard: –

    I agree Richard. It would be difficult to locate some of those people as they probably consider Bundy as a chapter closed. But here are the people who I believe would be able to provide more answers to the Bundy saga: –

    Bundy’s Death Row years: – Bill Hagmaier, John Tanner (and his wife), Carole Boone, Diana Weiner and the psychologists who interviewed Bundy (Art Norman, Preston Holmes, Dorothy Lewis and others)

    Bundy’s earlier years: – John O Connell, Stephanie Brooks, Bundy’s family members and other friends and acquaintences.

  44. No snow here, Kevin.

    Jason – Somebody should try to get interviews with all those people and compile the results in a book. That would provide some interesting reading. I doubt it would ever happen, though. Hagmaier and Tanner were forthcoming, but many of the others have walled themselves off.

  45. Kevin: –

    Thanks for the reply. It would be interesting to see how your proposal pans out considering its about mass murder in the USA and your last book was just on murder lol. I wish you all the best.

    Richard: –
    Although we may not ever get an overall true picture on Bundy, I do believe there are more answers to his story out there.In post number 1260, I mentioned those who were close to Bundy throughout his life and I believe would be able to answer some of not alot of questions involving Bundy based on their experiences with him.

  46. Yes, Richard, Bundy was a man full of surprises; most of them bad! And you know, despite all the research and writing about this man, I still have a sense there’s a great deal we don’t (and can never) know about Bundy. A strange bird, indeed.

    See ya,

    Kevin

    P.S. Have any snow up your way yet?

  47. Jason–

    I usually do not reveal what I’m working on until I’m nearing completion of the book. However, I can tell you that I’m writing a book proposal at the moment, and if the publisher likes what I have to say (we’ve already been exchanging emails concerning this), I’ll no doubt be signing a contract soon after. And while I can’t be (or won’t be, LOL) more specific, it’s about mass murder in the United States. Also, I was working on something for about a month nor so, but I hit to many dead ends, and discarded the project for what I’m preparing for now. I may return to it later, so I can’t speak of that now either.

    Take care, my friend!

    Kevin

  48. When all is said and done, Kevin, I think Bundy will surprise you. He reminds me of the Wizard in “The Wizard of Oz.” If so, all we need to see the truth is a little dog 😉

  49. Kevin: –

    Just out of curiosity, what is the project you are working on at the moment?

  50. In true psychopathic form, Bundy cared deeply about his own feelings, but HAD NO sympathy for the feelings of others. What others felt simply didn’t matter. He was the center of his own universe. All things, he believed, were for the taking; thus all things belonged to him.

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