Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
The “timeline” referred to upthread is, I believe, the “Ted Bundy Multi-Agency Team Report”. There used to be a website, tedbundy.com, which is now defunct but had a copy of this report on it. However, if you look up that website on archive.org you can still find a copy of the Report in the “Errata” section, as a PDF file.
The front matter of the report includes a short section on Bundy’s M.O., which is mostly stuff we already know, except for a note about how Bundy liked to “work” by moonlight or the headlights of his car so he could see his victims, and a really creepy comment about how when his victims started to come to in the car, Bundy would pretend that he was taking them to the hospital.
Next comes some more interesting material, including a list of aliases Bundy used and all his known addresses, including the rooming house he lived in in Seattle and his address in Salt Lake City.
After that is a list of homicides he confessed to. Then the timeline, which makes up over half of the 50-page report and is filled with items like “04-03-73, Bundy bought gas, Seattle, Washington”. The note for 1-18-68 mentions that he stopped in Arkansas as part of the trip mentioned in Bundy bios, when he dropped out of school and headed east to Philadelphia. Some of the items do indicate random driving. On 5-18-72 he is listed as having bought gas in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho–why was he in Idaho? Hunting victims? On 5-27-74, as mentioned above, he is listed as buying a dress–super creepy. On 8-2-74, the day Carol Valenzuela disappeared, he is listed as buying gas in Olympia, which Mapquest tells me is 105 miles away from Vancouver, WA, where Valenzuela disappeared. Since we know he traveled 260 miles from Seattle to Corvallis on May 6 to abduct Kathy Parks, that wouldn’t seem like it rules him out for the Valenzuela murder.\
5-5-75: “Bundy was challenged in dorm on college campus, Pocatello, Idaho”. That would be the day before he abducted the little girl, Lynette Culver, from Pocatello. In early June he’s shown driving through Idaho, Washington and Oregon.
After that there’s more on his whereabouts. It appears to be a record of all the dates where his location can be definitely established. Anyway, that’s the “timeline” mentioned above.
Hi Ted
No worries about scanning the timeline. I am a bit surprised at how, as you mentioned, Bundy brought a dress. do u think he actually bought it for one of his victims to wear or that it could of been a present for a lady friend or liz, or stephanie?
Hi, Jason. I’ve never found the timeline on the Internet. I got a copy from the VICAP folks back in 1993, when I was doing some research for an article I wrote about serial killers. The timeline was put together in 1992 after a multi-agency meeting in Quantico, where all the investigators from all the states in which Bundy was known to have lived, visited and/or committed crimes got together to share information. I’d try to scan it and upload it somewhere, but it’s really long.
Laura–
Bill has mentioned to me in the past how, over the years, publishers have sought him out, telling him he should do a book. But for whatever reasons, he has decided not to thus far, though He may do it in the future. I told Bill he should write it, as it would be a unique look at the years he spent with Ted, and even he told me that it would be from that focal point only, and not a biographical look at the killer. So let’s hope he does finally take the literary “plunge”.
The picture may be the one found in the Time-Life series on serial killers. I haven’t watched Natural Porn Killer for a long time, but that’s probably the one you’re referring to in the film.
I think I may even watch the film tonight.
Jason–
I would be very surprised if it’s released that early. I can only say that the editing is finished, and they’re working on the covers, and the inside of the book. However, whenever I receive the page proofs, I must read through the entire book to make sure there are no last-minute corrections which need to be made, and to add page numbers to the index I’ve already created. Once I return the proofs and index to them, it could start rolling off the presses within days, I’m told. So I’ll let everyone here know when I receive the page proofs.
It was interesting to note in this documentary, when Bill Hagmier speaks (around half way through) the picture behind him is of himself and Bundy (ted is on the right), not sure if it was put up for the documentary sake or if he genuinley has that picture on his wall. The picture I have never seen before onlne in all my searches I came accross it one day in a forensic psychology book on necrophilia, and then recognised it in the film. But I thought it interesting to point out as of al the Ted pics this is the one your unlikely to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40tzdFIPAf0
This has little relevance to anything other than I find it interesting he has that picture behind him in the interview and it’s not one that is widely seen. I’d love to have read a book from Hagmaier on Bundy but in some ways I respect the fact that he has not done one to date.
Hey everyone.
I am really looking forward to this book now. It is stated on various websites that the release date will be July 5th. Would this be a likely date in which it would be published Kevin? If so its only around 6 weeks to go which isnt long really.
To Ted, Is there a copy of the timeline avaliable on the internet? It would be very interesting having a look at this to try and link some unsolved murders on specific dates depending on where Bundy was at the time.
Thanks everyone
Jason
Yes, Liz did go back and forth when it came to Ted. She did not understand how the man she knew could be responsible for these crimes. Even so, her heart was in the right place, as she always came back to asses the situation again and again, given the evidence available at the time. So her heart was not the problem, it’s just that her head couldn’t quite figure it all out; at least not until the events in Florida finally blew the lid off of everything.
Hi Laura–
When I first started the book, I had a couple people tell me I was wasting my time; that Bundy had been “done” as they say. But I knew otherwise, and once I started locating the new information I have so often referred to at this site, I knew for an absolute certainty that I was more than on the right tract! In life, we must all do that which WE believe to be the correct decision, and not always what others tell us.
Bundy worked for Harbor View Hospital (I’m not looking at the manuscript at the moment, so I hope I have the name exactly right) and he did have some issues while there, and I do cover them in the book.
Ann Rule has put out a lot of really good work. But as I mention in a post above, her work on Ted is not one of my favorites. Still, I would not get rid of my copy, if that tells you anything LOL!!. At times, it seems a little self-indulgent, but it still has a lot of really good information in it, AND, without question, she had many dealings with Ted. What it lacks, however, is an academic “feel” to the book, which, I believe, is important when taking on a complex subject like the life of Theodore Robert Bundy.
Take care,
Kevin
Sorry one last thing, if you want to view the Natural Porn Killer it’s on youtube here is a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40tzdFIPAf0
You have to watch it in parts.
Liz interests me, how could anybody realise or begin to realise what someboy MAY have been capable off yet not do anything about it – until it was far too late. People say she was weak, or just under his spell but she still slept with him once he was let out of jail on bail. I forget when but the M & A book tells you. This is just madness surely.
That’s correct, Richard, and I believe Ted stopped in Arkansas on his way home from the east coast in 1969.
Hi Kevin,
Firstly what a great thread this has been, Im going to order the book (Im in UK) Im glad I stumbled accross the site on my internet travels.
It just shows the interest Bundy still has twenty years after his execution and thirty years since his crimes. I was chatting earlier about Ann Rule and how perhaps she had made more of their “friendship” than it actually was – M & A even state that she had a vivid imagination in their book.
Anyway it got me thinking a while back in a book I read about BUndy doing work somewhere I think a mental hospital and he was dismissed as patients records were missing and they were getting funny phonecalls. It was a feeting mention and not something thats talked about in depth anywhere I just wonder if its something you cover in the book or have contacted folk who worked with him about it would be interesting to find out exactly what happened.
He had an uncle in Arkansas with whom he visited in ’68 or ’69.
Hi Ted–
Thanks for the kind words concerning my commitment to answer questions on this site! I do it because I enjoy it and because I think I should. And I fully expect that after people start reading the book, it will prompt even more questions, and I’ll be answering questions once again, perhaps in even greater numbers, and that’s okay with me too.
No, I haven’t seen that time line, and it does sound interesting. However, I have literally thousands and thousands and thousands of copies of original records from this case, including actual copies of checks Bundy has written, receipts for a rug he had cleaned, records showing that both he and Lynda Healy would often cash checks at the same safeway store in Seattle, etc. And the list goes on an on. And all of it is very interesting, and guess what? I HAD TO READ THEM ALL! LOL!! And I think I mentioned that I have the records of Bundy’s gas purchases in Utah and Colorado for the time he was away from Washington State. In fact, these gas records might be a part of this time line record you’re talking about, although I received my copies from Jerry Thompson out of Utah.
You’re correct about the hair being the style from the 1970’s. Still, if you look at pictures of all the dead girls, it does show Ted’s preference for dark headed women, (the only real departure, in my view, being Susan Rancourt, his second choice of the evening at CWSC). Just like a guy who says: “I love blonds” Ted might say: “I love killing dark haired women”. So do I believe there is a connection in the similarities of the looks in the women he killed? Yes, I really do.
Kevin, thank you for taking so much time to respond to everyone on this thread. You’re written almost enough here to fill another book!
I’m always amazed at the many myths about Bundy that keep getting repeated. i.e., he liked bunettes with long hair parted in the middle, etc. That was just the style at the time. PIck up any high school yearbook from the 1970s and you’ll see that most of the girls have long hair parted in the middle.
The FBI and the folks from VICAP put together a very detailed timeline of Bundy’s life (particularly the years generally associated with his murders) that allowed investigators from multiple jurisdictions to try to tie him to crimes in their cities, or eliminate him entirely from certain crimes. I have a copy, and it really is fascinating. A lot of the entries read like this: “16:30 – Bundy bought gas in Tacoma, WA,” or “12:55 – Bundy had stickshift on his VW repaired in Seattle, WA.” But there are some interesting inferences to be made by studying this timeline. One is that Bundy did an extraordinary amount of driving (trolling), sometimes buying gas five separate times (in three diffferent states) in one 24-hour period. Secondly, the timeline also places him in Arkansas and Wyoming at certain points, two states that were extremely interested to know that Bundy was a visitor. Thirdly, he spent some significant time in motels in cities in California, Oregon and Washington. And finally, the timeline seems to preclude him from being responsible for certain murders generally ascribed to him (such as Carol Valenzuela). Did you ever get a chance to see the timeline? Obviously, there are some pretty significant gaps in it that occurred at points when there was little activity on Bundy’s credit card and/or phone, the main ways the FBI was able to track his whereabouts or activities.
One entry has Bundy buying a dress at a department store. It’s not such a stretch to imagine that he used the dress in one of his brutal reenactments of detective magazine covers that he subjected his victims to.
Hi Claire–
First pornography: I couldn’t agree with you more! It is an unhealthy activity that can never really satisfy; certainly not in the long run, as they say. Most people who view it will find this out eventually, and it won’t be a detriment to them. Now, there are SOME (usually men) where it does seem to become an addiction, but even here, it will not lead one (in my opinion) to violent acts of any kind. Killers like Bundy have an extremely twisted mind and their sexuality is intertwined with violence in ways so unusual, that possessing even a partial understanding of such problems will ultimately lead one to believe that pornography cannot be the seed which created the monster. And I know, having said this, there will be some who will not be able to brings themselves to even consider what I propose here, such is their feeling about porn. Still, I have to go with that which makes the most sense to me, and leave it at that. And so, let me say it again: I believe pornography is bad for the soul, and people would do well to avoid it altogether. But I repeat, it’s not a monster creator.
I think it was Bob Keppel who told me that when Ted was arrested in Florida, he had a cheerleader magazine in the car. This would be for stimulation, and was probably in his possession when he grabbed Kim Leach.
I believe Bundy kept things from his victims from time to time; and that includes Washington, Utah, and of course, Colorado. Once the caca hit the fan, as they say, he ditched everything.
Yes, Bundy did help the authorities at the end with some unsolved cases. But he didn’t do it to be nice. He was stalling for time, and he fully understood that if he didn’t come clean on at least SOME of the murders, the detectives in the various states were not going to help him get his death sentence delayed. Of course, it all backfired on Ted, as the detectives had no intentions of trying to stop his execution. And in the end, it wouldn’t have mattered anyway, as Ted had no intention of revealing everything.
Hi Fiz, not had a chance to check out Amazon yet but will do tomorrow. I have Riverman the book, it’s the tv movie I’d like to buy. You can buy it off ebay I believe but I try to use Amazon main and not ebay or Amazon Marketplace, but hey it looks like I’ll be buying the dvd off ebay etc.
I don’t mind the shipping wait for Kevin’s book, it’s worth the wait.
The Cambell key seems to be quite an issue, I’ve never heard this fact until reading here. In Natural Porn Killer, it is noted that he kept souveniors as it in the Crime Stories docu by Robert Ressler.
It’s an interesting Docu – Natural Porn Killer, the interview with Michaud is certainly interesting and in the docu it was mentioned that Ted had majorette magazines in his room (either in Utah or Talahassee) by a detective. This is something I’d never read about. Is this something you have found out too Kevin? He certainly had some very incriminating reading material in his possession, what with those magazines and the more incriminating Ski Lodge brouchure.
It was Liz who said to WA police that she had found a bag of womens clothes and a box of keys. The keys were from his WA days but that’s not to say he didn’t kept things in Utah from other victims.
With regards to pornograhy I think that it’s not the cause of homicide, homicide is motived by pyschological factors which is why I find the whole Dobson interview laughable. I just think some men (a small portion) are certainly not viewing it in a healthy way
I’ve always wondered did Ted ever actually help the police in any real way with his confessions? There were 2 Jane Doe’s that are always listed as victims, one in WA and one in ID. Have their identities ever been discovered by the police based on his information?
Claire.
Jason–
That’s not the film I was thinking about.
I just emailed Mike Fisher about what made him suspect this in the first place, and knowing Mike, he’ll get back with me fairly soon.
The Campbell portion is quite significant as to detail concerning the murder and Fisher’s investigation into it, and I believe I mention the key and how Bundy lied, but until I go back and check the manuscript, I can’t say for sure if it’s in there. But there is a tremendous amount of info about the crime in my book to keep the reader busy concerning her murder and what happened, and even this isn’t the new stuff I’ve been talking about! Still, you’ll find new info there in abundance.
The documentary is called ‘natural porn killer’, i am not sure whether it is from redback films or not. Michaud just mentions that Liz found a box of keys in his room at one point which she thought was strange and this was probably from his murder victims. If the box of keys were in Washington state, How would Mike Fisher know about Bundy taking Caryn Campbells keys specifically? As stated above, Bundy must of removed all of the items that Caryn Campbell had in her person, including her clothes, but what made Mike enquire about the key? Is this situation described in your book?
Jason
Yes, I do remember something about the box of keys, but I was thinking they were in Washington State. I might be wrong here, but I’m thinking it was WA.
Is the documentary you’re talking about from Redback Films? If so, I helped the producer get in touch with two of my Utah contacts, after Stephen Michaud emailed her a copy of my “Snitch” article to look over, and my email contact information.
ok thanks for pointing that out
Another point i would like to add in relation to the Caryn Campbell case, In a Ted Bundy Documentary based in the UK, Michaud stated that In Bundy’s apartment, he kept a bag or a box of womens keys. I think he stated this was found my Liz Kendall. Could the keys taken from Caryn Campbell have been left with a bunch of other keys taken from Bundys other victims? This is a possiblity.
Hello Vidor–
Believe me, had I not been introduced to Bundy’s murder kit, I never would have written a book about him, and yes, the preface and / or introduction of the book will cover this. It was a surreal experience, to say the least!
I guess we’ll see how Mr. Sullivan opens his book when we buy it, but that sure would make a great intro. Opening the murder bag. Spooky.
The highlighted portion found in the second paragraph in the intro to the above interview: “from inside Bundy’s ski mask”
Where is the link for the article you wrote for snitch? Jason
Vidor–
I think Mike Fisher suspected he may have kept it. Why, I don’t know. But Bundy’s hedging here does make it clear (in my mind) that he must have retained it for a time, and then at some point discarded it. The next time I talk with Mike, I’ll ask him why he believed Ted kept it, and I’ll let everyone know what he says.
Yeah, the pictures were in the basement of Ted’s apartment at 565 First Ave.. Thompson and company searched the upstairs apartment, but nowhere else.
Yes, that is a woman’s belt, and if you go to the above link where it speaks of the article I wrote for “Snitch”, you’ll be able to read how I had all that stuff in my house, and I mention the belt and how it must belong to one of the murdered girls.
“I don’t really know who Debbie Smith was, so what are the particulars about her?”
All I know, regarding Debbie Smith, is that Ann Rule’s book lists her as a victim. Which, as we’ve discussed, seems very unlikely, as she disappeared in Feb. 1976 when Buny was being watched.
Keeping the room key? Well, let’s see–Campbell had the room key when she met Bundy. She was found nude, and none of her possessions were ever found. So Bundy must have gathered up her stuff and thrown it away with the rest, yes? Why would anyone ask about the room key?
Nelson’s book mentions that the detectives that searched Bundy’s apartment in Utah missed a bunch of very explicit Polaroids that he then destroyed.
And speaking of souvenirs, that’s a woman’s belt in the picture, with all the murder tools in Bundy’s bag.
Claire, Amazon .co.uk is showing Kevin’s book as order-able (probably from the US though, as it seems to add a 6-10 day wait for it, which is what usually happens when they order directly from the US) and if Keppel’s “Riverman” isn’t available on Amazon, I would try ABE.co.uk.
A clarification to my # 213 comment about Fisher asking Bundy about the key: I rechecked my notes, and Bundy didn’t say “no”, he said he didn’t remember. Nevertheless, Fisher knew Ted was lying.
Thanks, Richard. My first thought would be that I kinda doubt it, seeing that Utah authorities may have started watching him closely again after his return from Seattle. But who knows?
Hi Claire–
Could Bundy have taken Campbell to a room at the Wildwood Inn? Sure. But I’m basing my belief that he didn’t because of what he told Mike Fisher years later. Could he be lying to Fisher? Yes, but because this confession came at the end of his life (and because of some things having to do with the inn), I think he’s telling the absolute truth. More about what happened there is in the book.
Pornography can be problematic to a society, to say the least: It can be addictive, it can create unrealistic expectations in people, and from a moral standpoint, I believe it to be wrong; and yes, it treats people (mostly women) as objects. However, I will say again, most men who view this are not thinking about violence, – but the sexual sadist is! Most men view it because it’s pleasing to look at, but they’re not driven to murder over it, nor does it cause a man to want to beat or abuse a woman. I have never believed it to be a stimulator for violence, and don’t hear me saying I think it’s a good thing, because I don’t. And it had absolutely nothing to do with why Ted Bundy started killing young women. Those of my brethren
who believe otherwise are fine with me, but again, I believe them to be wrong, and I’m sorry Dr. Dobson fell for Ted’s lies.
Debbie Smith’s decomposed body was found near Salt Lake City airport on 4/1/76. She had disappeared the previous February. Bundy left Seattle for Salt Lake City on 2/3/76. That’s all I’ve been able to learn about her.
With regards to my post on Campbell being taken to his room, again it’s a way Bundy said the murder could have taken place. Of course as we all know and have gathered by now anyway, he lied throughout his life.
Bundy speculates he could have booked a room for 2 people to not arouse suspicion and have her help him to his room, his car or a hospital, after feinging an illness. It’s referenced on page 183 in convesations with a killer in the 2000 edition. It’s recounted to Hugh Aynesworth and not Michaud.
I believe pornography is a not the root of his murder spree but it is creating violence. Through my own experience and having talked about the dating climate of today, with my friends, we all agree that to the wrong man pornography can warp men’s desires.
It’s a harsher world out there when it comes to respecting women than back in 50’s, romance is dying. There a some funny Impulse perfume adverts playing in UK cinema’s now and they are bang on for relaying that the wooing part of dating is just not taking place anymore. I believe this is due to loosening of morals and sexuality being broadcast so much. Recently I was shocked to see the morning after pill being advertised on the tv. I’m a young woman myself and not the most religious person in the world but society is just too relaxed now.
I think the Dobson interview is geared towrads shifting the blame onto Pornography by both parties. Ted Bundy was warped before he encountered pornography. I don’t think he could have truly felt pure emotion for the victims, even after reflection.
I’ve read somewhere that he did spend his last hours with a methodist vicar. I’m sure it was more the company he’d be seeking rather than the words of the bible and absolution.
Claire.
BTW: The item Fisher believes Bundy took from Caryn Campbell was her room key; to room 210, I believe. I’m telling you folks now, as I don’t believe I mention this in the book, and even if I do, it’s just a tiny fact I’m divulging. LOL!!!
Richard,
I believe Ted ditched everything after his arrest; or perhaps not till after the first search of his apartment, for I believe that’s when he destroyed the photographs.
Vidor–
Perhaps only Nelson and Holmes have identified Liz by her real name. I haven’t kept up with it all that much, to be honest.
I don’t really know who Debbie Smith was, so what are the particulars about her? Rattle the cage of my mind and perhaps I’ll remember!
Bundy was most certainly looking for a person to kill on the night of his arrest. Keep in mind, too, that Bundy was an opportunist, so along with getting high, and doing whatever else he’d been doing, he was also looking for a situation to present itself to him. Of this I have no doubt. Trolling for a victim at that late hour was quite routine for Bundy.
And speaking of denials which are actually lies, this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about, and you’ll read my commentary on Ted’s denials concerning this night once you have my book.
We know he took photos of his victims. There are apparently other items he took as well. What do you think happened to all that stuff?
Richard,
Yes, there are times when I read certain exchanges Bundy is having with Keppel, or someone else, and his denials have the ring-of-truth to them. So every denial he ever uttered, in my opinion, isn’t a lie. However, two things are without question: First, he enjoyed killing young girls, and second, he didn’t want to talk about it. He could discuss (if he had to) the murder of adult women, but not young females.
Mike Fisher asked Bundy if he had kept a certain item that had been on the person of Caryn Campbel, and Bundy only answered the detective after a long pause that no, he didn’t. Fisher told me that he knew Bundy was lying, and I think he was right; I will even go so far as to say Bundy used the pause for dramatic effect, and wanted Fisher to understand that he did in fact take it, but was not going to give him the satisfaction of saying it verbally.
So not every denial was a lie, but many were.
Liz was referred to by her real name, Liz Kloepfer, in Polly Nelson’s book. However I don’t think any of the other Bundy bios did.
Not to speak for Mr. Sullivan, but the “silence” about Debbie Smith probably has to do with the fact that she’s not particularly credible as a Ted Bundy victim. Ann Rule seems to believe that Bundy took Smith as a victim in February 1976 while he was being constantly watched by police.
Do we suppose Bundy was also looking for a victim when he was arrested in August 1975? His excuse for being in that neighborhood isn’t very credible, and when he was pulled over, the passenger seat of the VW had been removed.
One of Bundy’s possible victims, Debbie Smith, has received little coverage thus far. Will you be breaking the silence about her?
Bundy specifically denied eight murders, including that of Kathy Devine. Kethy was later found to have been murdered by another. Since we caught Ted in a truth about that one, aren’t his other denials credible?
No problem, Brandon. Have a nice day!
Kevin
Never mind, Kevin.
I read into the 190’s and saw your explanation.
Thanks
Kevin,
I haven’t read all 200+ comments here but I have read at least a hundred and still have a question.
I am curious why everyone continues to refer to Liz by her pen name “Liz Kendall”. Her real name was used in a few articles dating back to the 80’s and of course her court testimony has her real name for all to see in the Florida state archives.
Of course this isn’t crucial information to the story, but it strikes me as odd. Most of the Bundy books do so and I noticed you did as well in a few replies above.
Can you give me the rational for that?
You know, Jason, I think Bundy was in Pensacola about a day and a half, but it’s been almost a year since I wrote that portion of the book, so I could be off the time a little bit.
Bundy was certainly dragging his feet, as they say, in getting out of the city, and I really believe he wasn’t thinking very clearly at the time. He was very tired and emotionally worn out. And yes, he was trolling for something: Perhaps something to steal, or perhaps someone to kill.
According to the only living witness, Bundy was seen by a police officer (who subsequently arrested him) driving out of a restaurant car park a number of hours after the restaurant itself had closed. It could have been possible that Bundy simply stayed there to get some rest or sleep. Is it known how long Bundy was actually in pensacola? From the Only living witness again, Bundy was seen going through peoples bags in a bar (i think in pensacola before he was caught) in an attempt to get some more cash/credit cards so it is possible that Bundy was prowling through pensacola looking to burglarise someones property. Or even worse, looking for some one to kill?
I don’t have a page count yet, but it’s over 120,000 words, and it is being published in trade paper form.
How long is the book? Is it coming out in hardback or paperback or both?
whatever ruse Bundy used, you can bet Caryn found it sincere. But there were other factors at play at the Wildwood Inn that helped Bundy pull off an abduction; things, let us say, that he took advantage of after learning of them. I can’t discuss them now, but they are in the book, and once you see them, you’ll be shaking your head yes, in agreement.
I would love to know how he managed to get hold of Caryn – she was feeling ill (Rule and A&W), and had just had a major argument with her fiance, and then a fight about who would get her magazine. She must have been feeling rotten and upset as well – but she was a nurse. I think Bundy must have pulled his cripple stunt on her. I used to pray for Bundy before and after his death, but I am afraid I feel different now, being the mother of two young women, both with long dark hair with a middle parting…
Vidor–
I’m not sure who said the above quote, but no, Ted didn’t take Caryn Campbell to a room at the Wildwood Inn. He used a ruse (I’m not certain which one) to gain her confidence, and then it was off to the VW and certain death for Ms. Campbell.
As I said in an above post, I go into great detail concerning this abduction, and I don’t really want to give away very much now. However, Harter did correctly identify Bundy from a photograph she was shown a year later, and what she told the detective at that time (as to what Ted was doing, how he was dressed, and yes, why she noticed him in the first place!) you will find in my book. And this same detective believes he also knows why she failed to identify Bundy in court at that critical time, but because this was just his opinion, I had to leave it out of the book.
Yes, I believe Bundy killed Nancy Baird, probably killed Valenzuela, and might have murdered Robertson and Cooley too. In truth, I believe Bundy is responsible for more folks than we have even imagined.
Yes, Bundy and Pensacola! Why wasn’t he across the state line by that time of the morning?!! Well, he was certainly trolling for something, wasn’t he? And it’s also true his mind was not functioning the same as it had been years earlier. No, Theodore Bundy was a man clearly in decline.