Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
BTW: Today is the 36th anniversary of the Lake Sam murders of Janice Ott and Denise Naslund. Take a moment to remember them, for had it not been for Ted Bundy, they no doubt would have been alive today. And to think, there are family members and friends of these two (and this goes for the families of all murder victims) who still carry grief because of their untimely and brutal deaths. Though it seems long ago to us, it is not so long ago to them.
Hi Greetz–
I believe there is a very good chance Bundy murdered both of the women you mention. He did admit to killing more in Colorado than he’s admitted to by name, and I think this holds true for all the states in which Bundy hunted and killed. For example, he told authorities he murdered 11 women in Washington State, but he only confessed to 5 by name. He all but admitted to Bob Keppel he murdered at least one girl in 1973, and then didn’t want to discuss it. He also told authorities he murdered 8 in Utah, but he only spoke of 5 by name.
Now, I have always believed Bundy murdered more very young girls than he admitted to at the end of his life. He had a great deal of trouble talking about the murder of 12 year-old Kim Leach of Lake City, Florida. And as I say in my book, he didn’t mind being known as a killer of adult women, but he didn’t want to be associated with the murder of very young girls; girls that are in actuality little more than children.
So, I personally believe there are graves out there holding the remains of both young girls and adult women that Bundy killed, and many may still be classified as missing and presumed dead. But as to how these missing died, we will never know for sure.
I hope this helps.
Take care,
Kevin
Hello Kevin and maybe others,
I always had big interest in the last period of his killing spree..
Let’s say the last 2 months before his arrest in august 1975.
If you look on the TB wikipedia page. You will find in the list of victims that susan curtis on june 28 is his last one before the arrest in august.
But can i get your opinion on the Shelley Robertson case and also the one of Nacy Baird who dissapeared just 3 days after Robertson. Both on a station in an area where Bundy could have been hunting.
Do you think Bundy killed these 2? And possibly more after these before his arrest in august..
I’m very curious.
Greetz Maarten
Hi, KYGB! Are you OK after your surgery? Regarding this Bundy’s date from 1972, was she the one who worked with Bundy in Harborview Hospital during his internship? The one who was forced by Bundy (at her own expenses – car, gas) to scout future Washington dumpsites?
Barry,
Rule mentions a “Claire Forest “, but it’s quite probably a pseudonym. She claims that she broke it off. Liz K was upset that she and Ted were dating. She also thought Ted was a really strange guy and was really wierd the one time they had sex. They dated in ’72
Paul, Genette Tate was almost certainly killed by Robert Black, and Susie Lamplugh’s parents accepted that a probable three time killer, John Canaan had killed her from evidence which the police gave them.
Paul, people are also trying to say he’s Bible John, who killed three young women seeing them home from the Barrowland ballroom in 1967-8, but he dumped their bodies, which Tobin never did, so I find this a stretch too far. Also, when Henry Lee Lucas wanted to confess to every murder in the US, even when he probably only killed two, every P.D was trying to pin every unsolved murder on him – I think this case is the same.
I know this is off topic but it looks like sadly the UK has found our own Ted Bundy. Peter Tobin has been charged with killing 3 girls/young women has hinted to killing 48. He is suspected in the case of Geanette Tate, a paper girl who vanished in the 60s I believe (her bike was found in the road with the wheels still turning) and Suzy Lamplugh ( an estate agent who went to show a man around a flat and vanished, the name the man gave was an alias). Very sad, it really hits home when one of the victims lived near my town.
Sorry I dont mean to digress but may be of interest to the UK readers.
Its such a bummer I cant remember where I read either of these statements but will keep looking who knows maybe I dreamt them. I remeber being interested in Bundy since I was about 14 as I remeber writing an essay on him for school I am 33 now ( although I tell people I am 29 ) so over the years I guess things have got muddled but if I do find any mention of these I will let you know. Bundy did confess to drowning her in the bath and I don’t know that he drowned any of his other victims. I did find though that the notion is he took Lynette from her playground but friends saw her boarding a bus at lunch time and she was never seen again. Thats not to say she did not return to school unnoticed.
Hi Barry–
I would have to know the actual name of the person to answer you, but if you read this in Rule’s book, the name has probably been changed. If not, I can only say I’m not familiar with a Claire Forest. Sorry.
Hi Paul–
Bundy made no mention of electrocution concerning the Culver girl, and in fact, I don’t believe he ever electrocuted anyone. Bundy had his ways of killing, and that wasn’t one of them. Also, the purported statement: “when a victim escaped the next one paid for it” is something I never encountered in my research. As far as we know, the only person to escape from Bundy was Carol DaRonch. So it’s not like he had a lot of escapes. Plus (and this is a big one), since he ALWAYS murdered his victims, just how much worse could he make it for them, as a type of pay back for a previous escape? See what I mean? So personally, I doubt he ever uttered such a thing. But who knows?
Also, Bundy admitted to commiting necrophilia on Washington victims and in particular Gergann Hawkins, he also decapitated them. So I assume he had sex with headless corpses and I domt even want to think about what he did with the heads he had from the dead washington girls, he was really sick (the understatement of the century)
Hi Kevin again
Do u know of any information about a girl called Claire Forest that suppossedly dated Ted for awhile in the summer of 1972. if i mind there was a bit about it in the stranger beside me, but cant recall the details. would be interesting to know who broke that relationship off.
I really cant remember where I read that to be honest I should make notes when I read this stuff. The books I have read are Ann Rules and the only living witness. I have recently read this olw and it was not in this so I wonder if both statements are from Ann Rules book I no longer have this so will try and get it again and see if I can find it. I know I did read it about Lynette being electrocuted and drowned and that TB said when a victim escaped the next one paid for it. I will see if I can find this info again and state where I read it.
Make that: San Francisco…Duh!
Here is an e-mail fro Michele to me. She had some trouble posting her comments at this site:
From: Michele Komen Nelson
To: Kevin M. Sullivan
Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 2:14:25 PM
Subject: ramblings
Hi, Kevin.
I tried to post to ET again, and again received an error message. Sorry to bug you with e-mails. Was able to get 30 pages or so of your book read. Very interesting. Did not know that Bundy alluded to Ann Marie Burr’s kidnapping and murder, the picture at Lake Sam is chilling (looks like the ski rack could have been there), and did not know he had been at Lake Sam the week before. I googled some of the addresses in the U-district. Don’t know how many times I passed the alley and sorority house. Yikes!
A question. Has anybody noticed the pattern of and if there is any significance to Ted’s serious relationships? Ted was the young son of a petit, dark-haired single mom who married when he was around five. Liz is a petite, dark-haired single mom, whom he met when her daughter was around that age. Carole Boone is a petite, dark-haired single mom who had a young son. Both had suffered disappointments from men — was he their rescuer? Like he had been his mom’s support as a youngster?
Also, much has been made of Ted starting his murder spree after his break up with the rich Russell girl (btw, is she part of the wealthy Russell family of Tacoma?). Has anybody seen pictures of a young Louise? Perhaps she fits the physical profile — she definitely fits the psychological profile (troubled, needing emotional support) of his victims. For example, he is lashing out at his mother, not because of his illigetimacy, but because he was her emotional support and trusted little man and she betrayed him by marrying. Thus, he vented his anger by beating and torturing women who represented her. Or, he simply could have been a demon in human clothing.
I’ve notice another “pattern.” Many of the women rode bikes as a mode of transportation. Could he have chosen these victims because bikes indicated a quick get away from him was not possible? Or, on occassion did he run them off the road to stun and then kidnap them?
Bundy said and may truly believed that his victims didn’t suffer any more than they “needed” to. Whose need? His? In his mind, a torture and beating may not have been needless. Also, it appears he was an accomplished liar — why believe anything he said?
Regarding the Lorraine’s friend and her chilling account of the man who followed her in the library. I just read Michaud and A’s first book. Bundy is quoted as saying that perhaps he found her in a library or cafeteria, discussed her troubles, knew she had been drinking and asked if she would go for a drink. She willingly got in the car and only became alarmed when they got too far from the campus.
Sorry for the ramble.
~Michele
Hi, Michele–
I can’t remember, but I believe Michaud & A used “Russell”, but I give her another name in my book. Her real name is Diane Edwards, and no on the Tacoma thing, as she is from San Fransisco.
Yes, Bundy all but flat out told Holmes he’s the killer of the Burr child.
As you read more of my book, you’ll see I bust Ted out on his not wanting the victims to suffer statement. Bundy received great enjoyment creating terror in the minds of those he murdered, as it was a type of sexual fuel for him. To understand what Bundy believed you must do two things: First, look at what he did (and sometimes honestly admitted to), and second, look for where he attempted to present himself as normal, or even sympathetic, when dealing with those he killed; when, of course, there wasn’t anything normal or sympathetic about Bundy, and especially so when he was involved in killing. He was the consummate liar.
Personally, I don’t believe Bundy became a killer for any one reason. That is, by the time he was three, he was already showing signs of something terribly wrong in his thinking (see the story of his aunt, and how he placed kitchen knives around her body as she slept). So there may very well be factors here we do not understand. This is not to say Bundy didn’t have a choice in life: he did not have to abduct women and murder them. this he wanted to do, but he wasn’t a puppet without a choice in life.
Bundy abducted so many women, in so many different ways, I don’t believe he thought too much about what part a bike would play in the crime at all. Just my opinion here, lol! BTW: he wouldn’t stun them, as with a stun gun. He would, however, hit them over the head with a crowbar.
I believe from what Lorraine told me, it no doubt was Bundy following her from the library, and even before I knew this from her e-mails, I wrote the same thing in my book (that he might have been following Lorraine before he spotted Kathy). it just seemed to make sense to me because of the way Bundy hunted.
Do you want me to post your email and my response at ET? if so, just let me know and I’ll do so.
See ya,
Kevin
Thank you, Vidor. I was just about to comment on that statement.
BTW: I e-mailed Mike Fisher the links to the photos, and I’ll post his response here as soon as I receive it.
“tied to a bed in a hotel bed and electrocuted using wires froma lamp ( i think that is accurate unless I read some dodgy info)”
Sounds bogus. Where did you get this?
Paul, your post is very interesting. I share your view that this whole Bundy’s talking about ‘being delicate’ to victims was a bullshit. I also wonder what Bundy was doing during 2 days following Lake Sam abductions (he declared ‘sick days’ at his DES workplace). He probably ‘played’ with still alive victims. Also your comment that Bundy was extremely cruel to Debbie Kent to compensate his ‘loss’ of DaRonch sounds very ‘bundyish’. But can I ask what’s the source of your information?
Hi all
When reading about Bundys depraved murder spree I always feel for the victims that are not well documented such as Lynette Culver she like Kimberly Leach was only 12 and I believe tied to a bed in a hotel bed and electrocuted using wires froma lamp ( i think that is accurate unless I read some dodgy info) and drowned in the bath tub. Also, Susan Curtis who was apparently a surprise to the police (why I still don’t know she was the right age possibly looking a bit older walking alone and vanished wiithout a trace ). As it turned out she was at the play with her parents when Debbie Kent was abducted. I also feel so sorry for Julie Cunningham who woke and got out of the car and ran for it only to be caught again, the fear she must have felt. I think we would all like to believe Ted liked his victims unconscious so suffering was minimal but in my heart I don’t believe this I think he liked them bound, naked and scared and he liked to make them suffer. I think that if he felt he had somewhere secluded to go he played out all his sick fantasies. After all why electrocute someone if he could not see the pain it caused and why not kill Janice Ott before abducting Denise? I think he wanted them to meet and one to watch while he killed the other. I also suspect he took the girls to Taylor mountain to kill them and showed his recent victim the other dead girls to scare them even more. He even indicated that Debbie Kent suffered because Carol Daronch escaped and she was alive for at least 12 hours.
I would like to say it would not happen today but sadly it is probably happening now. In UK a man named Peter Tobin has been charged with killing a foreign exchange student and when they dug up his garden found two more missing girls and are now digging up his other gardens of houses he used to live in. It is very sad that people can kill another human for sexual kicks and continue doing it without remorse, mental illness or not we all know right from wrong otherwise these people would not cover their tracks so well.
Vidor–
I’ll see what I can do.
Kevin, do you think you could ask Mr. Fisher to take a look at those links? Specifically, could he confirm whether the first link is the right walkway (I don’t think so) or the second link (I think it might be)?
Hi Vidor –
Oops, yes, you’re right. My bad, my apologies. Hmm, then I can’t think of any excuses for the movie! (*Especially* as it’s so comparatively recent.)
I agree with what you say about the book. Nevertheless, as Rule says, there was another element in her relationship with Bundy. You *can* work with some people on an on/off basis and feel close to them. That book always strikes a chord for me, because many years ago I adored a mentor-type person in a position of trust. When he left suddenly, rumours abounded about the sleazy advantages he’d taken of that position, and I defended him fiercely. It was another dozen years (during which I’d renewed the friendship with this man, been a godparent to his son etc) when I realised the rumours were all true and that a close friend of mine had been badly hurt by him.
Like Rule, I felt enormous anger when the veil finally dropped, and to some extent dropped the contact, but eventually took it up again until he died. He was always good to me even though he eventually tried to get sleazy with me too. So I identify closely with Rule’s ambiguities about Ted, and her anguish about whether to believe he was so bad or not, her disillusion, the remaining bond between them (not much but still there). I do think she painted that exceptionally well, and I’m sure there were many other people in Ted’s life – his mother and Carole Boone for starters, even Liz who said a part of her would always love Ted – who felt just the same. (Polly Nelson’s book, to me, is a litany of people whose trust Ted betrayed.)
This is interesting. Go to the end of this video for an interview with Carol DaRonch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJob06O-MYg&feature=related
She says that he came up to her in the mall and asked if her car had a certain license plate number, which it did. I’d never heard that before. Had assumed he’d just spotted her in the mall–obviously he saw her get out of her car in the parking lot and followed her in.
Thnx for the pictures Vidor
I always imagined how the hunting grounds of Ted Bundy looked like.
Great to see it for the first time
Gr Maarten from holland
The Stew Pot was the restaurant that the Gadowski/Campbell party ate at shortly before Caryn disappeared. Colorado cops determined from the meal still in her stomach that Campbell died only a couple of hours after she went to get that magazine.
Excellent pictures of the Wildwood. Irrespective of whether that was the exact, absolutely precise location or not, those images certainly capture the true essence of the landscape in which Bundy was hunting (in my mind, I always envisioned it much, much differently). Sent chills up my spine. Regarding the movie, that artless depiction was just a few years ago, I believe. Call me a stickler for detail, but one would think the director/producer would say look, we need to at least put a bald wig on you for the execution, and eschew the flashlight as the instrument of death at Chi Omega (and call it Chi Omega), the parking garage instead of the lake, etc. I’m surprised they even had the States correct.
What was the significance of ‘The Stew Pot’?? I don’t recall that anywhere.
“I’m pretty sure the Stranger Beside Me movie was made hot on the heels of the book’s release.”
No, the book came out in 1980 and the movie came out just a couple of years ago.
The movie was really, really dismal. They showed Ted testifying in the Chi Omega trial. The Chi Omega murders got turned into bludgeoning with a flashlight. Awful. I always felt Ann Rule’s book was somewhat dishonest–she was factually correct in describing her relationship with Bundy (casual acquaintances) but endeavored to leave the impression that they were close friends, when of course they weren’t; Ted was using someone who had contacts with Seattle police and Rule was writing a book. Apparently making a movie relieved Rule and the movie’s writers of any factual obligation whatsoever. Awful. Poor Billy Campbell.
Hi Vidor – Thanks again so much for excellent pictures. [You’re a very good photographer too.] Even if it’s the wrong corridor, it certainly gives me ‘the picture’. And it IS chilling – really a perfectly ordinary spot until you think how it all came together for Ted: steam, a short walk, a dimly lit car park and…whack.
Kevin – Did you remember to ask Mike Fisher about Ted being very anxious about the ‘discovery’ papers re Laura Aime? Again, this was Richard Larsen quoting Fisher.
Scott and Vidor – I’m pretty sure the Stranger Beside Me movie was made hot on the heels of the book’s release. At that time, Rule was a single mother supporting 4 kids; she’d only just broken into ‘the glossies’ from the pulp detective magazines, and one treatment then screenplay for a movie about another of her cases (at the time Ted was arrested in Florida). I think she’d also only just got into a decent house, after a fragile beach house (and using an even more fragile houseboat as her ‘office’). In her financial position at that time, I think most of us would have ‘sold out’ whatever anyone did to our book, and yes, it is an appalling movie.
Scott – thanks for comments. Re Bundy’s last interview, I’d read enough about Ted to expect what I saw: gobs of self-pity (I don’t believe it was remorse), and his head swinging around wildly whenever the phone rang, ie he was waiting on news of last minute appeals by his lawyers. In Liz’s book, “The Phantom Prince”, he seems to cry for himself on every other page.
About pornography’s influence: Ted said to someone (I’m trying to summarise dates and quotes here at home but not sure about this one) that his need to kill was there before the porn really took hold of him. He once speculated to Michaud and Aynsworth that had he been born a century before, without access to porn, he might not have become a killer. I doubt that’s true, there were 19th century serial killers about. Ted likewise told Dr Dorothy Otnow Lewis that a ‘voice’ urged him to kill; later the same day, he told Bill Hagmaier that he had to say something like that because people simply didn’t understand that he loved to kill. So I think you can take ‘the devil made me do it via porn’ with a grain of salt.
Hagmaier: for those who are interested, I finally found the YouTube interview in which Hagmaier relates yet another version of Ted’s ‘reason’ for Chi Omega:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PROHhDt8OAU&feature=related
I wonder if they ever gonna make some next Bundy movie. One can say ‘Bundy is filmed to proverbial death’, but the same thing Kevin was being told while working on ‘The Bundy Murders’.
OK, here’s the Wildwood. To avoid confusion, when I talk about left and right, I am talking from the perspective of someone standing at the bottom of the U, facing forward, towards the open end.
Here is what I apparently erroneously believed was the walkway in question. Second floor, left side of U, facing the pool.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29977603@N02/4773196208/in/set-72157624383907062/
Here is what I believe MIGHT be the right corridor. Left side of the bottom of the U. This picture was taken from right next to the elevator. That might be the service closet on the right. These rooms were 211-218.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29977603@N02/4773193682/in/set-72157624383907062/
Here is the view, from the bottom of the short flight of steps (six or so?) that you take to get to the walkway after you ride the elevator to the first floor. This is looking towards the parking lot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29977603@N02/4773198798/in/set-72157624383907062/
The Stew Pot!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29977603@N02/4773198308/in/set-72157624383907062/
This is the right inner side of the U, facing the pool. Pretty sure this isn’t the right corridor.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29977603@N02/4772561363/in/set-72157624383907062/
This is a parking lot immediately across the street from the Wildwood. There are three right next to the hotel and a couple more just above it. Note that there are only two lights.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29977603@N02/4772563711/in/set-72157624383907062/
So there you go. As I said upthread, it was 75 steps down that walkway to the sidewalk. Very short.
YES!!! Haha! A parking garage! I was taken aback at first, because I figured the movie would at least LOOSELY follow the Bundy story and Rule’s book. I believe they omitted his first escape altogether! No mention (maybe I skipped over that blip). The entire Bundy-would-have-been-governor (sure-thing) bit I find amusing, and of course this movie embraced that theme. At one point, Governor Evans tepidly approached Ted at the function and asked to speak with him, very deferentially. In the movie, Rule brazenly believes he’s guilty, yet in reality, she didn’t embrace that until Miami. If one didn’t know the real story, they’d assume they were absolute best friends or lovers. And of course, the reality was very different. She never visited Ted at Starke to demand answers, wasn’t in court when he proposed, wasn’t present when Katsidis (??) read the indictment (a bogus scene). And yes, there were the Ted groupies, but it’s comical the way the movie depicts it. Also, they wouldn’t use true names (victims, I understand, but no Judge Cowart, no Chi Omega, no Lake Sam, etc). Ugh… There’s nothing funny or amusing about this unspeakable tragedy, but this was a mockery. Rule must have been paid handsomely to endorse/sign-off-on this lemon. I remember your comment Vidor (the full head of hair), so as I was awaiting the final moment, I couldn’t help but laugh as Bundy, being led against his will to the chair (another inaccuracy), looks like he came straight from the salon with a well groomed straight-from-the-salon head of hair. Unreal.
Yeah, that movie was pretty bad. I figured out around the time that the Lake Sammamish murders were staged in a parking garage (????) that it was going to be a bad experience. Sad thing is, Billy Campbell turned in a pretty good performance.
Kudos Vidor. I’ve been reading through this lengthy dialogue and you truly make excellent point after excellent point. Indeed, that must have been eerie at the Wildwood. Please do post the pictures that you’ve taken. On a side note, given that I’m on something of a Bundy kick right now, I sped through ‘The Stranger Beside Me’ on youtube moments ago (the USA network production). It was perhaps the most ridiculous, utterly preposterous depiction of the Bundy story I’ve ever seen. This thing makes the putrid 2002 film ‘Bundy’ look like Citizen Kane. If Ann Rule signed off on it -and I imagine she did- then she completely sold out. I don’t know if there was ANYTHING factual in that movie. As Vidor aptly pointed out, in addition to his FULL HEAD OF HAIR (indeed, a virtual mane), I expected to see Bundy moustached ala Officer Rosleand on his way to Old Sparky.
Vidor–
I was actually joking a bit about the “u” verses “n”. I look at the “U” and still call it a “U” even if I would be standing at the open end, which kind of makes it an “N”.
Okay, that’s the elevator she used, she turned right, walked some 75 feet along the walkway (what, about 30 steps for a woman her height?), and while her room did not actually face the pool, her door was a mere 2 steps off the walkway at the very beginning of the alcove. BTW, Mike believes Bundy took the steps with Caryn (after all, they were right there, and Bundy knew this), and he knows Caryn never made it into her room before Bundy approached her.
I’ll check my book (and other records) as to the actual time she went upstairs, and I’ll post again later this evening.
Hm, if you’re talking the “left” side if describing the Wildwood as an “n” then that would be the right side if describing it as a “u”. I should mention that there was only one elevator to the rooms, and that was on the lower left-hand corner of the U.
I will be home from vacation this afternoon. Will try and load up my pictures of the Wildwood. Pretty sure by now that I didn’t get the right corridor, but that’s completely my fault for not simply taking a picture of every walkway once I found that room 210 no longer exists. Oh well. I did take a picture of the walkway that Ted would have taken Caryn along once they either descended the stairs or took the elevator down. Felt a little spooky, frankly. Also took a picture of one of the three parking lots immediately across the street from the Wildwood showing how there isn’t a lot of lighting there. It would have been real, real easy for Ted once he got her to come with him. There probably weren’t a lot of people walking around the Wildwood at 10 pm or so (it was 10, wasn’t it?) on a very cold night.
Agree with you that they probably both changed the name of the place and re-numbered the rooms specifically because of the Campbell murder. Probably to discourage ghouls like me!
The Stew Pot restaurant is still in business, BTW.
Vidor–
Yes, I guess that would make it an “n”, but I still feel like calling it a “u”. I think we’ve turned into a type of Laural & Hardy team as far as this room thing goes, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
But check this out: Mike told me that even when he was doing his investigation that first week at the inn, folks from the Wildwood were saying things to him like , “Do you have to say she was in room 210?” and “Do you have to mention the Wildwood Inn?”. So it’s no wonder they changed where room 210 was located, etc. I’m guessing here, but perhaps that’s why the Wildwood Inn became the Wildwood Lodge.
I’m interested in seeing your pictures, btw.
Okey doke, well then I’m pretty sure I took the wrong picture. Oh well. I took a picture of the walkway that was directly facing the pool. Damn. I should have just taken a picture of every walkway on the second floor as soon as I figured out that there wasn’t any room 210 anymore. Damn damn damn.
The internet connection I’m on right now is too iffy to upload a bunch of pictures to Flickr. Sometime soon, maybe tomorrow, I’ll link to what pictures I have. Like I said, I don’t think I got the right shot, but maybe you can forward the links to Mr. Fisher. I did take one picture of the bottom part of the “U” on the left side. That might be the right one but I’m royally confused now. Darn the Wildwood for changing the numbers on their rooms.
*****all of this is on the left (if you’re facing the “u” from the opened end) of the inn.*****
Wait, if you’re facing from the open end, looking towards the closed end? Wouldn’t that make the “u” an “n”?
And getting away from the right or wrong walkway, yes, it would have been very quick getting to the car. The parking lots are right across the street. He wouldn’t have had far to walk at all. I had always visualized them walking through the lobby of the Wildwood but that wasn’t necessary.
Vidor–
And oh yes, all of this is on the left (if you’re facing the “u” from the opened end) of the inn.
Vidor–
Okay. I spoke to Mike Fisher tonight, and here’s what he said about room 210: When Caryn stepped off the elevator (remember, Mrs. Harter saw Bundy standing close to the elevator, just watching, and looking out of place)) on the second floor, she turned right, and Mike said she would have had about 75 feet to walk along the outside walkway until she came to an alcove, and her room – 210- was the first door on the right of this alcove; Mike said her front door was just a couple of steps off the main walkway. So they were not actually facing the pool, but as soon as they opened their door and looked to the left, they could see the pool.
Now, Mike said that in this alcove is a short stairway leading down to the parking lot, which will lead one to Snowmelt rd. And so, once Bundy presented his ruse to Caryn, she only had to follow him a very short distance to a more secluded spot where he could whack her and toss her into his VW. Mike once again stressed (and I write about this in my book) how it was almost impossible to even see the pool below due to the steam rising off the water, so Bundy was obviously aided by this when he stopped Caryn. Also, the service closet was in this alcove.
let me know if you need any additional info, and I’ll see what I can do.
Vidor–
Actually, it’s not silly at all. If one is to understand what happened, it’s very important we get exact locations, etc. So I applaud your sense of duty and effort to get it right! For me, there really is no other way to do it. I’ll post again soon.
I think that’s all I need. Actually, I’m not sure how there could be a service closet directy across from her door if her door also faced the pool. What I found was that the rooms on the second floor that faced the pool, on the inner side of the left of the U, were rooms 231-237. Rooms 201-208, IIRC, were on the OUTER side of the left of the U, facing not the pool but the shopping/dining area across from the Wildwood. 211-218 ran along the bottom of the U on the left side. I believe rooms 231-237, the rooms directly facing the pool on the left, were where room 210 used to be. But to get to either 211-218 or 231-237, you’d have to hang a right out of the elevator.
I kind of feel silly writing that much about how to find a hotel room.
Actually, if you could ask Mr. Fisher, that would be awesome. I was going to post a picture on the Wikipedia page but I don’t want to post one of the wrong walkway. Cripes, I hope I didn’t take the wrong picture. Not like I’ll be in the Aspen area again anytime soon.
Vidor–
I called Mike Fisher and left him a detailed message as to the question of the location of the room. He should get back with me shortly.
Vidor–
I know room 210 faced the pool, as Mike Fisher said so. I also know that after exiting the elevator, she turned to the right for a very short walk to her room. Mike said there was also a service closet directly in front of her door, but of course, this tidbit (the service closet) tells you nothing.
If this doesn’t help, post again, and I’ll call Mike Fisher and ask him.
The Dunwoody duplex, and the adjacent buildings are now gone.
Kevin, can you confirm that Room 210 of the Wildwood was on the inner left side of the “U” there? I’m pretty sure that’s where it was but I want to make sure.
*****Someone made a great point earlier about Google Earth and the fact that Bundy, after Chi Omega, actually went away from his safe refuge and between the police and himself to the Thomas house. This is another absolutely stunning event to me. I had not known this and always thought, assumed really, that Thomas was an afterthought, a girl on the way back to the Oaks, a victim of circumstance. Again, simply incredible*****
That was me, and I had exactly the same reaction. Really shocking, really reckless, and incredibly revealing of the depth of his compulsion. BTW, you can find the addresses of the Dunwoody Street house and The Oak in the legal briefs from FSU law school that are linked from the Wikipedia page. Use Google Street View and you can see the huge tree that gave The Oak its name. The building burned down in 2002.
I agree that Ted was hunting for a victim the night he got arrested. He had no reason whatsoever to be in that residential area. Probably he was planning a home invasion a-la the Healy murder. I also think that he was hunting when he got arrested in Pensacola, for the same reason: why was he wandering around Pensacola, pulling out from the alley behind a restaurant, when he should have been on I-10 headed for the Alabama state line? Alabama couldn’t have been more than a half hour away. Inexplicably stupid–unless he was looking for someone to kill.
A little accurate info is needed here:
First, I do not believe that Bundy knew anything about any girls in a house where Hayward first encountered him. There is absolutely nothing in the Utah record to indicate that such a thing is valid. keep in mind, we must stick to the official record in determining what Bundy did and did not do; or know, etc.
The reason I know Bundy was hunting that night / early morning (even though he stated otherwise to police) can be found on p. 145 of my book, which states that the passenger seat was detached and in the back seat. His murder kit was also open, and the contents were apparently spilling out. And so, it is very clear he was hunting, and we know this from the condition of his car. BTW: The tire iron was not (obviously) behind the seat, but was on the floor of the VW. Again, police record here.
Hi Denise!
After work, I’m going to stop at Barnes & Noble on my route home and hope that The Bundy Murders is in stock.
That is an excellent point regarding the DaRonch day. His thirst for murder was clearly unquenched, and he was intent on satisfying it. If I remember correctly, he initially approached a teacher who had a stake in the play. She brushed him aside and he persisted. Then she saw him lingering, etc. You’re so right. Imagine if she had called and said we’ve got a strange cat loitering around here who seemingly has no connection to the students, school or play. Perhaps he’d have been in that line-up months sooner, with all the facts/events much fresher. Bundy’s temerity was just stunning to me.
Also, I had no idea about his scouting the two teenage victims on the “Towering Inferno” arrest, or that the crowbar was actually at the ready. Again, fascinating. In all the years I’ve followed this story -since about 1990- and read and re-read two of the books through time, seen the documentaries, etc, I always just accepted that that was a chance arrest, or something of that nature. That was clearly very naive on my part as Bundy was clearly on the prowl that evening, and Hayward very likely prevented a homicide that night/early morning. I always wondered why they referred to his “kit” as burglary, as opposed to rape/murder (I suppose that was an easier charge to apply).
There are just so many mysteries with regard to Bundy. I would have been utterly fascinated by a true account of everything from him. For example, regarding that night, Bundy revealing openly that he was specifically out for murder that night. As an aside, I viewed a youtube clip that pertained to his last interviews (you’ve definitely heard it), where he goes into depth regarding the Hawkins abduction, and Bundy states to BK that he’d employed the same MO a couple of Fridays earlier and simply decided not to kill when they reached his car. But again, there he was, perusing the grounds for the missing shoe, despite the fact that he could be connected to the area, and with a saturation of law enforcement.
Regarding the Thomas attempted murder, obviously she had no chance of survival but for her adjoining housemates and phone. Even though it was the unglued/messy Bundy, it definitely followed his pattern: The bludgeoning, then the sex act, then strangulation. Thankfully, he was interrupted. I know that at Chi-O he brutalized his victims, but I don’t recall if he ever raped any (as opposed to using objects, etc; trying to remain PG here). In any event, that must have been his goal with Ms. Thomas. Again, he darts off into the dark of night knowing -and likely hearing- all the chaos around him. And it’s not like he knew that area THAT well. He’d been there what, a couple of weeks? For all his peeping he couldn’t have known the habits of all, especially in a college town. Again, his fearlessness is just stunning. It exhibits how crazy he really was.
Another great point regarding the Burr homicide. I saw Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips and his father on Dateline NBC, recounted killing a hitchhiker at 15 or so and then shutting down for several years. You’re right, this could very possibly have been the case with Bundy and the Burr killing. It just seems that Bundy’s murders were all sex related, and he was quite young at the time (12ish?? I could be way off here and he may well have been well into puberty). Anyway, I guess we’ll never know. (I don’t know the Dahmer story, or the other notables (Ridgeway, Dahmer, Gacy, Rader, etc) that well. Zodiac is the case that I was most interested in, outside of Bundy. Anyway, not important.)
While I disagree with the Bundy/Dobson theory that pornography was to blame (if that’s really what they were driving at), I don’t discount it as a severe and profound impetus in his case. I also think there’s something to Bundy’s statement that all of his peers on Death Row shared this denominator. That said, I think it was merely a convenient scapegoat for Bundy (and Dobson’s agenda), and that Ted was going to kill with or without porn’s influence. But I did think Ted was very convincing (perhaps not the right word) in his final interview. Maybe he grieved only for himself, that’s very possible, but I did detect some sincere remorse on his part (just my opinion; I completely agree that others may genuinely have a different view and truly believe he was full of spit).
Last thing, I always wondered why Bundy didn’t head toward Alabama and straight out of dodge after the Leach abduction (or really, after the first set of murders/attacks). One would think his thirst for murder had been quenched. I could be wrong, but I believe he headed east. Obviously, he was in the grip of madness at the time, but on the surface he seemed capable of concluding that FL was simply not a good place for him to be (and he was using the Richard Burton approach at the time where another pre-teen slipped away).
One thing I always wondered is did the Washington/Utah guys suspect Ted instantly when word of the Chi-O/Dunberry attacks took place? Back then, news didn’t travel quickly and one wonders how long such a seemingly isolated incident on the East Coast would have reached the West Coast. Indeed, my recollection is that when Bundy revealed who he was, the cops in Florida had never heard of him. Had that been today -and even BEFORE the FL murders- he’d have been known nationally.
Anyway, take care Denise and thanks for the info.
…and PS: Kevin’s book is *fascinating* reading!
Hi Scott –
You raise some interesting questions, and we’ve all got them, lol!
Bundy was hyped on the day of the DaRonch kidnap. How are police gonna know he travelled and spent the evening inside a school hall? Had anyone phoned the police from Viewmont and said ‘Hey, there’s a guy we don’t know acting weird here,’ he might have been picked up immediately…
I also believe Ted was trolling the night he was first arrested. Firstly, if you check out Bob Hayward’s statement to a newspaper (http://tinyurl.com/2e6yurc), two teenage girls were alone, parents away, in the house outside which he was parked when Hayward spotted him the second time. Secondly, Rule says in her book that his crowbar/tyre iron wasn’t in the ‘killing kit’ bag but behind the passenger seat, where Ted usually kept it ready for a quick whack at victims.
Re Ann Marie Burr: I’ve noticed in reading about other serial killers, there is often a first murder in the teenage years, and then nothing for some years, sometimes. The GRK stabbed a young boy almost fatally when he was 15; Dahmer first killed when he was 18; and so on.
Re Cheryl Thomas: In Polly Nelson’s book, “Defending the Devil,” Bundy told Nelson and Dr Lewis on his last day that he’d been peeping at her house (two other girls lived there) then spotted Thomas; he let himself in when she went out ‘to set up for getting back in later’, and was shitty when she didn’t come home until late and he had to wait for her to go to sleep. One book mentions the girls kept a spare key on top of the front door jamb, but Bundy seems to have opened or loosened a rear window for himself for later entry so he wouldn’t be seen from the street.
I stumbled across this page today and must say it’s fascinating. I thought I knew much about the Bundy story, primarily from having read The Only Living Witness, The Stranger Beside Me, and having watched the popular Bundy films and documentaries, but Many here are much more versed. I am going to order Mr. Sullivan’s book and look forward to reading it. Thank you Sir for your participation here.
I just have some passing observations, given the breadth of the dialogue that’s existed.
I do recall, I believe in the Rule book, that Bundy likely raped a woman a few houses down from the Rogers’ rooming house. From what I recall, he seemed to know the lay of the land, the mode of entry (a window left unlocked), wore a ski mask, tied her up, smelled of alcohol, and ultimately left by peeling out and requiring her to count to 100 (or something to that effect). The victim only heard footsteps (no vehicle), and of course Ted was just a few doors down. Does anyone recall this? I believe this happened prior to the Healy homicide. Although this wasn’t a murder, I wonder what would have happened if the police had canvassed that area, asked around, etc, and perhaps Bundy would have surfaced (unlikely, but possible).
I also recall in the Rule book that after a lunch together in which they consumed considerable alcohol (at least Ted did), he proposed they smoke marijuana together. This meeting transpired after Bundy was charged in Utah, considered the primary suspect in the Washington cases, and was under constant surveillance (although she wrote that they were anonymous that day). I wonder what would have happened, where the conversation would have gone, had his intoxication intensified.
I think Mr. Sullivan is spot-on regarding Bundy and his unwillingness to discuss the child murders. In a completely twisted logic, I too think Bundy believed that the killing of adults was in some way “acceptable”, at least with regard to the public perception of him, and that killing and raping young girls was not, and thus he simply wouldn’t go there. From what I recall, other than Leach, there were at least a handful of known victims under 18 (and maybe even under 16). I recall one in Idaho, if memory serves me right.
I was only 5 years old when Bundy escaped for a second time and embarked on his Florida rampage. But can you imagine if that happened in today’s world? First of all, Bundy would have been plastered on every network and he simply would not have been able to avoid detection, let alone ensconce himself in a college town and murder again. I just find this fascinating, and always have about the Bundy story. The man committed all of that carnage while he was supposed to have been incarcerated and had already escaped! If that happened today, those families would own Colorado.
I believe the Kent murder was also the day of the attempted murder of DaRonch. This is another extraordinary event. One would think that he’d have taken it easy that evening, stayed in, whatever, but instead he goes right out there and abducts another victim, even though he clearly knew that the police would be on heightened alert.
After Bundy escaped the 2nd time, on New Years Eve, I believe I recall he hitched a ride with a guy and was in the car with him for a reasonably long stretch (he even conversed with an officer in passing during the blizzard; of course, they didn’t know he was gone yet, but interesting nonetheless). Was this man ever located? Again, just another fascinating tidbit in the Bundy odyssey.
Regarding the Bundy movies, in my opinion the best by far was the 1986 Mark Harmon portrayal. Even though this was a 4-hour made for TV special (Rated PG), I thought it was gripping and told the story as well as a movie could. On the flip side, the 2002 Bundy was awful, just laughably bad. I thought Reilly’s portrayal of Bundy was sincere, but took way too many liberties (the shouts of FYB repeatedly, as well as Bundy’s conversations with himself in the mirror, etc). It was pathetic. Also, it was factually incorrect. The cotton-ball practice was no longer in use at the time, and the idea that the executioner was a buxom brunette was pure fantasy. There were streams of factual issues in that movie. The point of that exercise was to be as graphic as possible, and that was it. Again, the PG version was truly chilling to me; the 2002 version a joke. I also watched the latest Bundy movie (the 2008 or 2009, not sure), and it too was very flimsy. First of all, the guy portraying him never changed appearance. He looked 40 when he launched into his killing career, and 40 when he sat on Old Sparky. Again, silly.
The night of his August 1975 arrest, it’s my belief that he was looking for a victim that night. I wonder what would have happened if he had “cargo” in the car and was pulled over, which clearly could have happened, given his driving track record. Bundy was often driving drunk with a victim in his car. I wonder how many near-misses he had in this regard, even during his prime, careful years?
I’m not sure what to think of the Burr case. Obviously, he couldn’t admit that due to the child issue. But if he killed then, did he stop for the subsequent years (I think he was 12 (could be wrong) at the time)? I don’t know. It wouldn’t shock me if he did it, and evidently he knew the girl, she might have gone willingly with him, etc, but it’s just a tough one for me to believe (as ridiculous a statement as that is; anything Bundy is possible, when it comes to killing).
Someone made a great point earlier about Google Earth and the fact that Bundy, after Chi Omega, actually went away from his safe refuge and between the police and himself to the Thomas house. This is another absolutely stunning event to me. I had not known this and always thought, assumed really, that Thomas was an afterthought, a girl on the way back to the Oaks, a victim of circumstance. Again, simply incredible.
Anyway, I apologize for how disjointed my thoughts on this were. I am getting your book Mr. Sullivan and look forward to returning here.
All the best. Take care.