Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Very interesting, specially this plausible ruse with Campbell.
As far as I know – and I don’t know much – Bundy never fully explained how he had lured Campbell of out Wildwood.
He was bullshiting authors and investigators about hiring room at this place to secure his victim or about playing the role of hotel manager to manipulate her.
“I did my thing in the car” – it looks like the one and only true statement of Bundy about this case, given temperature outside.
Maybe he was stalking her a bit and overheard she was a nurse. Therefore, sling or crutches ruse would be very effective.
So I stopped at the Wildwood today on the way out of Aspen…
…there is no room 210! If you visualize the Wildwood as the U that Kevin describes in his book, the left side of the U on the second floor starts with room 231. Rooms 201-208 extend away from the elevator at the bottom left corner of the U, not facing the pool, and when you come around to the outside of the U, the next room is room 211.
Apparently they renumbered the rooms. Maybe the Campbell murder was the impetus to do this. In any case, obviously I was unable to determine which room was hers as the numbers are different. I am relatively sure that it was the left side of the U, though. The reason for this is that there is no elevator on the bottom right corner of the U. If Campbell had been heading to a room on that side she would have taken the stairs.
Visiting the site certainly did show how the murder went down. They must have met on that left walkway and either taken the elevator back down or the stairs–probably the elevator if Ted was pulling the cripple routine. Then six steps or so down to the walkway across the bottom of the U. Then they would have walked across the bottom of the U to the sidewalk–I counted 75 steps. Then across the street to the parking lots. There would have been no need to go through the lobby of the Wildwood (and in fact the lobby would have been out of the way). They wouldn’t have had to walk through a high-traffic area at all. There were three lots immediately opposite the Wildwood, each of which was lit by two streetlight poles. Even if those poles were there in 1975, they didn’t look like they’d have illuminated the lots too brilliantly. Presumably he whacked her there a-la Georgann Hawkins.
Owl Creek Road, where they found the body, is a shortcut from Snowmass Village to Aspen. I didn’t see much of a point to driving it, but in any case I was told that it isn’t paved. It was surely a convenient out-of-the-way locale for Ted that night.
In any case, I took pictures of the left-side walkway both from the ground level and from the end of the walkway, and I’ll have them posted soon.
Hi Barry–
No, that was all bull. If Bundy wanted that, he could have had that in abundance. He had Liz, a bright political life was unfolding, he was going to law school, he had influential friends in the community, and everyone who knew him expected the very best out of his life. I suspect, had Bundy not turned killer, he would have become very well known in Washington State, due to his connections, etc. But that was not what Bundy really wanted. He just wanted us to believe that is what he wanted.
What Bundy really desired out of life, he showed society very clearly.
Hi kevin
In “conversations with a killer” after his second escapes bundy says
“I was waiting for the bus in omni, watching a convention on the main floor. There were all these people goin to the hawks game. And i was watching these people who had real lives, backgrounds, girlfriends, husbands and families, who seemed to have so much of what i wanted”
What u make of this statement? Did bundy really want a life like that seeing he enjoyed murder so much.
it is frustrating no one will ever really know how many he killed, according to olw he did admit to 2 in oregon and i think Vicki Hollar and Rita jolly were from there so i guess there is a good chance he was referring to them. We know he came back the following year and took Kathy Parks, perhaps he went to Oregon to take her because he felt comfortable and had previous success there.
Slight correction:
“(in my opinion) for each of the states in which Bundy lived or traveled.”
Now, that’s much better!
Hi, Paul–
I don’t believe Bundy ever confessed to the Cooley or Robertson murders, but he did intimate once he killed more in Colorado than the ones normally attributed to him.
it is my belief he killed more folks in WA than he has admitted to; and the same holds true (in my opinion0 for each of the states in which lived Bundy lived or traveled.
I don;t know if the sighting of Nancy Wilcox in a VW is an accurate one. But who knows for sure, right?
Does anyone know the area Horton Rd west lynn oregon? the reason i ask is Rita Jolly vanished there in 1973 and have just finished reading only living witness and Bundy describes killing a girl in an orchard. It is believed to be Nancy Wilcox I think but Bundys version is she never got in his car alive anyway. However Nancy was seen in a vw so something doesn’t add up.
It also mentions that Bundy disabled cars at first and Vicki Lynn Hollar, her car and purse have never been found. Would not be that hard to do something to the car causing her to pull over after a few miles then him come along and be a “good samaritan”.
What are other peoples gut feelings about these two cases. I am more inclined to think Rita Jolly was a Bundy victim rather than Vicki Hollar but both are a possibilty.
hi all
Something that has been bothering me is why was Susan Curtis such a surprise they knew Ted was killing in the area why did they not suspect him?
Also, does anyone know if he was ever questioned about Melanie Cooley. Did he actually confess to Shelley Robertson and does anyone know more about Debbie Smith? Are any of these victims covered in your book Kevin
Hi Vidor –
Thanks so much for the pics, I never realised it was such a jump from that window!
Michele – what an interesting (and horrible) story. I don’t have Kevin’s information on the time frames, but it sounds very like Ted.
Vidor–
Several things: There is a small window of time that September of ’74 – he left on the 2nd, but returned later that month so that he could load that old truck and prepare to make the drive back to Utah with brother Glenn. Also, there may have been some additional time later that year, perhaps around the holiday period.
But there is also this: Bundy came home in early winter of 1975 (see my book, P.126) and perhaps most importantly, he returned to Seattle on Friday the 6th of June 1975 and surprised Liz ( my book, P.139) This alone, would place Bundy in the correct time frame.
Also, Bundy returned to Seattle in late November 1975, but according to police records in Seattle, they didn’t start tracking him until Dec. 1st (my book, P.166) So again, there was time available to hunt.
it’s the passenger seat being out of the car that sparks my interest. After all, if Michele is telling the truth, then who on earth could have been driving around with the passenger seat removed? Of course, we can never know for sure. But it sure is interesting.
I dunno about that story. Not that I don’t think it happened, but that it might not be Ted, and the reason why is this:
“Time frame: I’ve read a number of TB books and the FBI report and believe he was in the area at the time. I don’t have an exact date of this experience, as I did not keep a journal, and have narrowed it to between September 1974 and June 1975. For sure it was was between September 1974 and June 1976 because those were the years I was in 7th and 8th grades, my brother graduated in 1976 and he was still in HS when this happened.”
Ted, of course, was in Utah for most of that time. He came home for the holidays at the end of 1974, didn’t he? But then he went back to Utah and was there until his parents posted bail and he went home in late 1975–and of course then he was being closely watched. So this sounds improbable to me.
A little announcement for all:
I would like to introduce you to Michele (last names are up to her). She is a life-long resident of Washington State, and she has had, I believe, a credible story about her brush with Ted bundy. I believe it’s credible because of what she describes. Keep in mind that while many such stories are “suspect”, there will always be the occasional one which has the ring of truth. I believe this is one of those stories, based on what she has told me.
I’m actually posting this from an e-mail she sent me, as she had trouble posting her story here at ET. Hopefully, any questions you all have can be answered by her directly. If not, she can send them to me and I’ll post them for her.
I’ll share my TB story with you here because, unfortunately, when I try to post to Executed Today, I get an error message. I’ll give you the short story followed by details as to why I believe this encounter was with TB.
One morning when I was in junior high school, I was walking from my home to the bus stop about a block away. I was the lone student picked up at this spot in a quiet residential area.
As I was walking, a light-colored VW bug passed me — I believe twice. I saw it turn around, come down the road and pull into a driveway blocking my path. As I walked past the car, the good-looking young man driver called to me. He asked me for directions to Ingraham High School.
I approached the car — somewhat flattered that a handsome older guy would think I would know directions. I explained to him how to get to the school — I knew because my brother and sister both went there and my bus also passed it every day. He didn’t seem to understand the directions. I repeated myself several times. He then had a great idea — why don’t I get in the car and show him where the school was? I said I couldn’t because I had to go to my school. He told me, no problem, charm, flash smile, after I show him, he would take me to my school. Hmm. I looked in the VW and my simple, literal mind thought “how can I do that? The seat is missing.” I recall, too, that there seemed to be something wrong with the door. The man was fairly insistent, fairly flirtatious, but something kicked in and my heart started pounding a mile a minute. I suggested that he just follow my bus, since it went right by the school. No, I could just get in with him. About that time, I looked down the street and saw the bus coming. I told him that the bus was coming, gotta go and ran to meet the bus. I got on the bus, heart pounding — partially from the running. I asked a friend of mine if there was a VW following the bus. We looked out, and guess what, the VW was NOT following the bus — confirmation that something wasn’t quite right.
OK. That is my TB story.
Now, why do I think this was TB?
It wasn’t until many years letter that I realized the handsome man was probably TB. I didn’t make the connection then because I was a kid and even though “Ted” and Sammamish was news during my JH years, he was after college women. Even though there was a sketch of “Ted” it didn’t look like the smiling guy in the car — TB the chameleon.
Time frame: I’ve read a number of TB books and the FBI report and believe he was in the area at the time. I don’t have an exact date of this experience, as I did not keep a journal, and have narrowed it to between September 1974 and June 1975. For sure it was was between September 1974 and June 1976 because those were the years I was in 7th and 8th grades, my brother graduated in 1976 and he was still in HS when this happened. Also, I read in one book, that though the police were watching TB, TB gave them the slip on a couple occasions.
Location: Our neighborhood via I-5 is fewer than 5 miles and less than 10 minutes from the U District and easy access from I-5. I seem to recall one book saying he was familiar with North Seattle. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1pn=University+of+Washington&1c=Seattle&1s=WA&1a=4311+11th+Ave+NE+%23+100&1z=98105&1y=US&1l=47.659988&1g=-122.316609&1v=ADDRESS&1id=12569363&2c=Seattle&2s=WA&2a=2104+N+122nd+St&2z=98133-8524&2y=US&2l=47.71713&2g=-122.33385&2v=ADDRESS#initPgSt
Vidor, the pic you have of the entire building is really good. True, the trees are (in this case) a bit of a problem, but it may be a better shot than merely the window. But who knows?
I took several additional pictures of Ted’s window. I am wondering if a closeup with a clear view of the window is better than a shot of the full front of the building from across the street. Am looking for input on which picture is best for illustrative purposes. Rather than pasting all of those URLs here, I will simply link to the Wikipedia discussion page section, which has links to all the photos. Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ted_Bundy#Aspen_courthouse_photo.3F
Kristine–
During my research, I contacted the Washington Attorney General’s Office, as I wanted to obtain a copy of the transcripts. but I was told that the material left with Keppel. Now, it really didn’t matter too much, as I had access to the confession tapes, and Keppel’s book. However, if the WA AG’s office would have retained a copy, I still would have requested one for my files.
I can’t remember, but I believe Bundy told Hagmaier about the 4 heads, and I can’t remember when Keppel found out about them.
Vidor– Yes, Bundy took some real risks while escaping, but that, as you know, is common for him.
Kevin,
Do you have (or did you read) any of the actual Washington confession Transcript from Bundy’s confession with Keppel and hagmaier? I know that Keppel put the things he heard in his book, but there is information out there that says Bundy later added that he had the heads of 4 of his victims at home for a period of time. Is that a piece of information that Bundy gave only to Hagmaier, who then relayed it to Keppel?
These additional details must have been recorded by somebody (Hagmaier likely). Where does one find these particular transcripts?
The trees are unfortunate. Not sure why you’d want to cover up such a gorgeous old building with trees. Still, you can see where the window was and how far he had to jump.
By the way, I regard that escape with more amazement now that I’m here. That courhouse is on the end of the main tourist drag of Main Street. Right in the heart of downtown. And to get to Aspen Mountain he had to walk through the hordes of tourists. Today we took a gondola ride up to the top of Aspen Mountain. That’s a hell of a climb on foot.
Good pic, Vidor. Too bad about the newly planted trees. A monstrosity in the making.
So, we drive all the way from Durango, over the Million Dollar Highway and over some secondary roads, stopping at four different mountain passes to take pictures, as well as several other scenic points along the way. A little bit after six o’clock we make the turn onto the road to Town of Snowmass Village–and literally as I’m shifting into the turn lane, a massive deluge of rain rolls right over us. It continued pouring as I drove to the Wildwood Lodge, which I did locate. Photo not taken. I intend to take it soon, when we leave the area.
But I did get a picture of the Pitkin County Courthouse. Ted jumped from the second window from left. Photo is up at Wikimedia Commons and can be seen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pitkin_County_Courthouse.jpg
Hi , Denise–
Yes, If one were to put everything in the book, it would run 600 pages! LOL! But actually, I believe (I hope) that I’ve included everything in the book the reader will find interesting. I really did go to great lengths to carefully go over each and every document, highlighting the most relevant and important parts so that the person viewing the book will have the most thorough and up to date account of the case. And I think I succeeded here.
Bundy signed numerous release forms in Pensacola, so one missing from the batch (the one Patchen showed me) would not have altered anything. Besides, it was probably copied anyway, and the copy was placed accidentally in the court system rather than the original.
Hi Kevin –
Wow, fascinating story…I wonder if they ever needed that document in Bundy’s appeals? I guess they didn’t because the tapes and notes of what he said to Chapman, Patchen and Bodiford weren’t admitted to trial. You must have been so excited about that box; I sure would be. Those guys were so anxious to get Ted’s permissions – and all to no avail in the end.
I remember Michaud saying he and Aynsworth could’ve written a book four times longer than they one they did write. You must feel a bit the same. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if someone ever put it ALL together? (It’d prolly be the size of the Oxford Dictionary!)
Denise– I will tell you an interesting story concerning what kinds of things “pop up” when you’re dealing with the original case work material, and of course, those people who worked these cases.
As I mentioned in the book, I visited Don Patchen and his wife at their home in Tallahassee, FL in June 2008. Well, as we talked, Don opened up a large plastic storage tub containing original papers and copies of his original papers pertaining to the Bundy case. As we were going through it, he picks up an original signed document having Ted Bundy’s signature on it, as well as the signatures of himself and Norman Chapman. It was from one of the sessions they had with Bundy in Pensacola after he was arrested (it was actually granting them permission to interview Bundy) . Anyway, when he saw it, he was a little surprised, and acknowledged he needed to turn it over to the state archives. Anyway, it was interesting handling it for a moment, as it was like being transported back through time.
Also, I was able to view his original note pad (and make copies of it) filled with the statements Bundy was making to them, and I use a number of these in the book. Very interesting stuff.
I was also very lucky to be able to interview Don Patchen in the first place, as he doesn’t grant many interviews nowadays. However, I must have said just the right things in the voice mail I left him in my original contact, because his wife called me back two days later and said that he liked what I said over the phone, and that I sounded sincere; which I was. So it all worked out.
Hi Kevin –
I should’ve said, I’ve got Bundy’s confessions to Keppel in two books and also heard them on YouTube etc. I was interested in the others, because I always wonder what’s left out in favour of word count limits in books. Probably you have all the essentials there in yours, but I also take an interest in what police actually ask. Thanks for the heads-up re various archives, I’ve got those bookmarked.
Thanks for the nice words, Denise!
Well, you can hear Bundy’s confession to Bob keppel on youtube and it’s available at other sites too; plus the info is in Keppel’s book THE RIVERMAN. The Colorado confessions I received from Mike Fisher directly, over a period of time as he answered my questions. So i don’t have an actual transcript in this case. He relayed the info to me, and what I have in the book is about all he gave me. I have the transcript from Idaho, and I’ve read snippets of the Utah confessions, but I’m not sure if that’s an easy one to obtain (I didn’t need these, as I got a tremendous amount of info from Jerry Thompson).
A good source of Bundy material can be found at the King County Archives in Washington State, and the State Archives of Florida. Either one of these institutions may have something you’re looking for, or put you on the correct trail, if you will.
Hi Kevin –
“The Bundy Murders” is a definite keeper in my ‘Bundy library’ too, lol!
You mention, above, transcripts of the other confessions – are they easily available anywhere? Thanks…
Kristine–
I know what you mean. of course, in writing the book, I had to choose the story I believed was true. It certainly wasn’t anything he said that’s recorded in the Nelson book that sparked doubts in me. it was the exceedingly clear,and direct answers he gave during the Idaho confessions. There simply wasn’t anything he didn’t want to answer. There was nothing vague in his statements, and the entire transcript has, in my opinion, the ring of truth. As such, I believe what he related here are the actual facts of what happened to that girl. Others can believe whatever they wish, but as a writer, I have a moral duty to cut through the muck and mire and get to the truth, and in this case, it was very clear to me.
Having said that, I like the Nelson book a great deal. It is an important part of the Bundy story.
Thanks Kevin.
I got your book a few months back. Quite a page turner. I read the whole thing one evening over the span of some hours. For some reason I was thinking that the Idaho hitchhiker murder as described in your book was yet another different murder, not the one referred to in the Nelson book.
Now that I know it’s the same murder we’re talking about, it makes things even weirder, because: why would Bundy tell Nelson and her people that he killed the hitchhiker and then returned later to cut up the body into a bunch of pieces? As he always tried to make himself look less savage than he really was, why would he admit to mutilating a body into pieces if he didn’t really do it?
One thing he always seemed to shy away from was anything involving mutilation or sexual relations with corpses. So it seems really unusual that he would admit to mutilation to anyone. So, in a way, it makes it hard to believe that this wasn’t true.
Hi Kristine–
I’m assuming you’ve read Polly’s book, so I will tell you about the transcript only (plus, if you are able to obtain a copy of my book, I have this info. included).
Bundy picked her up on the outskirts of Boise, got gas in Boise, and traveled in an easterly direction on I-84, which at that time was under construction. They were together 3 or 4 hours, and Bundy took an off road close to a river and killed the girl there. he slid he body into the river (once he was finished, of course), along with all of her clothes. He said he burned her identification, and he dumped the backpack she had near a dump in Salt Lake City. He was very straight forward about these things, answered all of the investigators questions, and he left nothing up to speculation.
To obtain a copy, one would have to contact the Idaho Attorney General’s Office. But to be honest, there isn’t much more in there, and all pertinent aspects of the case I’ve mentioned here, and it’s all in my book.
Kevin,
You had mentioned that Bundy’s account of the Idaho hitchhiker murder in the Idaho Transcript confession is different than the one he told Polly Nelson.
What did he say he did according to the Idaho confession transcript? And where can I read a copy of that?
Thanks so much.
Hi Denise–
Yeah, Bill told me about the reaction of some of his peers, and I couldn’t believe my proverbial ears: I mean, these folks who believed he was doing the incorrect thing “befriending” Ted are educated people and should have known better. Only good can come out of this type of thing, and anyone who says otherwise (and I don’t care who they are) are flat wrong. By befriending Bundy, the killer opened up to him, and from that relationship, knowledge was gained by Hagmaier about Bundy’s crimes. And isn’t that a good thing?
And while I don’t think (as I said above) that Bundy always answered honestly when dealing with Polly nelson, Dr. Lewis, etc, I really enjoyed their books as they are interesting additions to the story, and all shall remain a part of my “Bundy” library of books (along with THE BUNDY MURDERS, of course, LOL!).
Oh, and I meant to add: Polly Nelson’s book is a litany of the people Ted betrayed or played off against each other. I feel certain he would’ve betrayed Hagmaier eventually, if he’d had enough time. No matter what the ‘depth’ of his relationship with people, eg Liz or Carole, he always ended up letting them down.
It’s also interesting, the different FBI attitudes to Hagmaier’s relationship with Ted. Ressler clearly deplores it; John Douglas was pleased about it.
Hi Kevin –
I think you have Ted nailed . I notice so often that he says something like ‘Well, I told x this, because x is not smart, so I’m telling you ([something else].’ Eg he clearly lied to Ressler about the Wildwood Inn. He told Hagmaier that he’d told Dr Dorothy Otnow Lewis about a ‘voice’ urging him to kill because she and others didn’t understand he just loved killing. Etc etc…
Denise– I believe that much of what he told his attorney(s) and Dr. Lewis, and others at or near to the end is absolutely true. But I also feel Bundy poured out some fabrications as well, and the discrepancies between the two Idaho hitchhikers is a perfect example. Indeed, if you read the transcript of the Idaho confession,where Haigmaier, Runeau, and several others are present, it’s abundantly clear Bundy is shooting straight, if you will, with every question he is asked. His answers are clear cut, and you’re not left to wonder his meaning in anything he’s saying. Nothing is hidden or left up to speculation.
From my point of view (and in my opinion) Bundy viewed the confessions to the actual detectives who had spent years hunting him, as the “real deal”, and honesty was of the utmost importance. With Hagmaier being present at these times (and he really did consider Hagmaier a friend, as evidenced by how he talked to his mother about him) and the investigators needing truthful answers, he just wasn’t going to lie. However, with the others (lawyers and doctors) he still (I believe) had an angle, we might say; and while much truth came out at those times, there were things Ted lied about for his own reasons. And, for the most part, this type of attitude is completely missing from the other final confessions.
Hi Kevin, I’m certainly not arguing against any version Hagmaier heard vs Nelson’s; my focus is that first one Bundy told Nelson. It doesn’t sound like a ‘Ted’ murder, but my curiosity was aroused by such a very similar one described by Bob Keppel.
Bart – I believe Californian detectives didn’t ignore Bundy’s invitation to confessions, they just didn’t have anyone spare to go there (long trip for all those detectives). The Florida detective said (newspaper item only) that he didn’t want to attend any confessions because he thought Ted wanted the state of Florida to charge him with another murder (invented or not) so he could stay alive a bit longer.
Is it possible that Bundy, so deeply confident in his “time for bones” scheme, suddenly started “inventing” murders that had never occurred? He even invited Florida investigator to his final confessions (this person didn’t show up), as it was something more to disclose than Chi Omega killings and Leach abduction. I also aways have a question: is true or not that California investigators ignored Bundy’s invitation to final confessions?
Bundy’s description of killing the Idaho hitchhiker in Polly Nelson’s book is vastly different from the last confession he gave concerning it to William Hagmaier, and the Idaho investigators. Of course, Nelsen describes it exactly the way Bundy gave it to her, through no fault of her own. But I think it was fictionalized (why I don’t know), and that he told the whole truth to Hagmaier and the detectives. I just don’t believe he ever wanted to lie to Hagmaier. Plus, the story he gave authorities is more plausible, in my opinion.
Could have been Polly Nelson’s description rather than Ted’s! I didn’t include the full quote, which has Ted skipping over the actual murder as he did in his final confessions, and groaning and sighing and saying it was so hard for him to talk about it (which he also did with his other confessions to police – yet he wallowed in his 3rd-person ‘speculations’ to other people, and he wallowed in his description of the Idaho hitchhiker murder when he finally made a full confession of one murder to Polly later on, without any ‘artistic’ bits.)
Denise’s quote comes from “Defending the Devil”, and was, as she describes it, Ted describing his first (?) murder to Lewis and Nelson. And that quote is pretty much all we know.
Since Bundy slavered over scenes of other murders (Keppel’s book on the hunt for the Green River Killer) which he was shown, I think it could be yet another fantasy, Bart.
It “was” KYGB’s knee – see post 2282 – and it’s probably fixed now lol!
Don’t think this whole morbid “ballad” about a blonde attacked in the vestibule of her apartment building, clubbed as “her long hair spread above her head like a fan”, being dragged out to the weeds – is just another Bundy lie or fantasy?
I guess, Denise, I’m not familiar with that one (or I’ve forgotten), but it must have to do with something Bundy “confessed” to at or near the end, and it may never have been firmly established.
Hi Kevin – Glad to hear it wasn’t *your* knee then!
Trumbull doesn’t fit this scenario, though – Ted speaks of an apartment vestibule, and dragging the body out to the weeds. Trumbull was found in her bed by another housemate…? I’m curious because Bob Keppel describes a very similar murder in “Signature Killers”, early on.
Hi Denise–
First, my knees are fine. That was someone else.
Now, I’m not familiar (or I can’t remember) that one, but he may be describing the 1969 killing of a woman named Trumble. Of course, he could mean someone else, but he was a suspect in that case after his crimes came to light. But who knows?
Kevin, I hope your knee is feeling better now?
A question: when Polly Nelson took Jim Coleman to visit Ted the second time, she says their goal was to get Ted to describe one of his murders [not be confused with her demanding to know what an actual confession would sound like when he first talked of doing a deal]. According to Polly, in “Defending the Devil”:
“Then he described the steps leading up to one of his first murders, a blonde in the vestibule of her apartment building. He stopped after recounting his still clear vision of her body lying on the floor, after he had hit her with a club, her long hair spread above her head like a fan…and talked about pulling the woman’s body into the weeds at the back of the building.”
I don’t remember this one being one of Ted’s known or even heavily guessed murders? Do you know who it could have been?
Well, do we have any experts on the interior of 1968 VW Bugs on the forum?
If he clubbed most of them in the head on dirt or grassy surfaces, he could easily cover up or hide any blood from the inital outdoor impact.
On the other hand, cleaning blood off the carpet or fabric of his car couldn’t have been easy, especially if there was a lot of it. Makes me wonder if he had something underneath their heads (like a small bucket or a towel or something) to catch any large quantities of blood spurt from getting to the carpet.
I remember reading about him cleaning his vehicle often (most likely for the minor blood droplets) even in front of detectives, but a paranoid and obsessive freak like Bundy must have pre-thought the possibility of dealing with excessive bleeders. He couldn’t have wanted to spend hours cleaning the larger blood stains from carpet or fabric.
Hi Kristine–
Good point about the blood. Well, I can tell you that in the case of Georgann Hawkins, he hit her a second time in the head with the crowbar as he was driving to the destination where he would kill her, because he was bothered she had regained consciousness and was talking to him. It wasn’t that he was afraid she could do anything to stop what he was doing. But he wanted to dehumanize her and partake of his fantasies without her becoming a “real person”, if you will. So in this case I’m sure he’d rather deal with the possibility of more blood (spatter and otherwise), rather than the “intrusion” of her waking up.
Keep in mind, too, that Bundy was constantly trying to clean up his car after such things had occurred, so in his mind, blood droplets or blood spatter (or worse) could be dealt with later.
I hope this helps.
To Kevin,
I was curious as to your thoughts on Bundy cracking most of his victim’s in the head with a crowbar before throwing them in his car. This seems to be the most widely accepted theory, and the one which he confessed to but wouldn’t that make a mess in some cases? In most cases, a strong blow to the head would cause blood. I doubt Bundy would want blood all over the interior of his car. What do you think he did when his victim’s heads were bleeding after the attack and while they were in his car?