Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Hi Barry–
Yes, on two occasions Bundy thought about killing Liz, yet I’m not convinced he was at the point that he would have gone through with it. However, when he pushed her into the water during their trip down the Yakima (my book p.78), it does seem like he was reaching that point.
And yes, even Bundy told investigators in Florida that he never wanted to harm those he knew or had otherwise normal dealings with.
Ted Bundy quote to Ronald M Holmes
“There is no greater thrill than to hold in your hands the fate of another”
Just reading a preview of Ronald M. Holmes book Serial Murder and he mentions that “Ted Bundy once planned to murder his fiance Liz, but changed and later aborted his plans”
Very interesting, its seems that no matter how much ted might of loved liz his murderous mind was too strong. Ronald also mentions that its very unusual for serial muders to muder someone who they have been intimate with.
Bundy admitted he had burned Donna Manson’s skull in the fireplace – to be exact,
yes thats the house where he cremated the hawkins girls skull in the fire you see the chimney on th roof.
Working my way through “The Killer Next Door”, and while it is limited in its way, having been written in a rush in 1979, it does have its interest as a history of the investigation. There are stories and anecdotes I haven’t read before, more about his Utah friends for example. And it did answer one thing I’ve always wondered about. Far, far upthread I mentioned that weird segment in “The Deliberate Stranger” where Ted chats up Laura Aime in front of a witness, only to have the witness ignored by police, etc etc etc. Had wondered why none of the other Bundy books even mentioned this, as it would be virtually the only time Ted was seen in the company of a victim at some point well before the murder. The Winn/Merrill book states that the Aime witness failed a lie detector test. So there you go.
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Good to have you back Lorraine! Don’t let the bart-bugs bite.
JRJ
Vidor–
Yeah, I don’t believe Bundy wasted anytime getting Caryn away from the inn. I also think it’s interesting that Mrs. Harter identified Bundy (at least in her conversation with Mike Fisher), and spoke of his “strange” manner of dress (p.178, my book).
I have always thought the idea of Bundy taking Caryn to a room was absurd, as Bundy didn’t want to just rape Caryn, but murder her as well. So it was always clear to me. And then, of course, when Fisher told me what Bundy told him about “doing my thing right there in the car…” (p.124), it made perfect sense.
Speaking of the Wildwood Inn/Lodge, there’s a footnote in that Wikipedia article that cites Robert Ressler’s “Whoever Fights Monsters”….I looked up that book at Google Books and Ressler’s interview with Bundy is available in the preview portion. Bundy played the “speculation” routine and hinted that he’d impersonated a hotel manager and that he’d lured Campbell to a room. Seems unlikely to me. I still think he did the cripple routine.
Link to the excerpt is below. Ressler wasn’t interested in Ted’s bullshit and cut the interviews short.
http://books.google.com/books?id=sXBnvC8Zr1YC&pg=PA294&dq=Whoever+Fights+Monsters:+My+Twenty+Years+Hunting+Serial+Killers+for+the+FBI&hl=en&ei=7FEgTNGdF4KEnQeTydxh&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Bundy&f=false
That’s exactly what I was intending–a shot probably from ground view of the walkway from the elevator to room 210. The original hardback edition of “The Only Living Witness” has a similar photo. Maybe a picture from outside room 210 looking back at the elevator. I dunno, I’ll see.
The tripadvisor.com reviews for the Wildwood Lodge are amusing. 35 years hasn’t been kind to the place, apparently.
Vidor–
You should take a picture of room 210 (Caryn’s) at the Wildwood.
I plan to put them both on Wikmedia Commons, in the Wikipedia article, and link to here. And by “both” I mean that I really only have two pictures in mind–the Aspen courthouse where he jumped and the outdoor walkway at the Wildwood Inn (now the Wildwood Lodge) where he met Caryn Campbell. There are quite a few pictures of the Aspen courthouse on the internet, BTW, just none in the public domain that I know of. It looks like quite a jump. No surprise that he tweaked his ankle.
You plan on putting some of those pics on here, don’t you Vidor?
Finally got a dog-eared paperback copy of “The Killer Next Door”. Since it was only $1.50 plus shipping and handling, I’d have to say it was worth it. As Kevin said it did in fact identify the specific window Bundy jumped out of in Aspen: second from left, second floor, front of building. I hope to get a picture next week.
KYGB, LOL! Well played haha.
So yeah, Bart, as much as I like your internet personality, take it easy this time, heh.
Easy, Bart.
Easy, now.
Hi, Lorraine
Yeah, it so great to hear from you.
I was really worried.
BTW – I wish you a happy birthday!!!!! 🙂 🙂
I am sorry I am slightly late with this lol
Bart
Great to hear from you, Lorraine.
It’s been a tough spring for several members of the ET Bundy crew. Other members have been in the hospital & I go in for knee surgery tommorrow!.
Hope you are doing well and are back up to par real soon.
KYGB
Hi all,
It has been a long time since my last post, and an equally long time since my last visit to this website. I have been very ill and have not had access to or the capability of using a computer in nearly 2 months. I have not yet read the posts since my last visit which I plan to do over the next few days. This time, however, I am going to follow Dr’s orders and get the bed rest, etc he has prescribed. I am looking forward to catching up, and hope that all of you are well and still participating here! I have missed this site greatly, and I’ve missed many of you whom I have come to know as “friends” through our correspondence here. I am anxious to start catching up, I just wanted to let you know that I’m back 🙂
Dear Ms. Lara:
I did a Google search and found an article on AOL News from May 29. Is there any more recent information? I hope this investigation gives you some closure.
Hello,
Carol Valenzuela and the unidentified murder victim found in October 1974 near Dole Valley Road are no longer considered Ted Bundy victims, but victims of Mr. Warren Forrest. It remains to be proven, but both victims are active homicide investigations with the Clark County, WA Sheriff’s Dept. I know because the FBI is currently trying to extract DNA from the hair of the unidentified victim. If DNA can be extracted, it will be compared to my missing murdered sister Jamie Grissim’s DNA. Please correct the information on your site.
Thank you,
Starr Lara
Jamie Grissim’s younger sister.
Bart– Bundy may have known Lynda Healy, so his attack on her could have been planned. And his legal troubles of August ’75 and beyond prevented him from continuing law school. It just wasn’t going to happen.
See ya
That is the quote from FBI Ted Bundy Multiagency Investigative Team Report: “Bundy termed one of his modes as a ‘predator mode.’ When operating in this mode, he was most organized. His planning included preselection of a body disposal site, discreet research regarding his victim, preparation of necessary paraphernalia, and complete planning of the assault to include flight, evidence disposal, and alibi. Only then would he approach the victim and put his plan into action.”
Isn’t is sligthly far-fetched statement? Did Bundy really make some “discreet research regarding his victim”? Maybe it happened occasionally – like in case of Healy or Aime (stalking). And did Bundy really care so much about alibi? He cared about leaving no evidence – but in many instances (his trials) he failed to produce alibi. His murders were marked by their daring not by stealth.
So you are suggesting that had not Bundy been apprehended in August 1975 , he would eventually dropped out of the Utah law school (like he’d done in Washington law school) – because of his ever growing preoccupation with murder and general laziness? That is very likely, I trust your intuition and your insight into his mind.
I once read that despite so many “extra jobs” Bundy managed to advance to the second year of law school 1975/1976, although his exam grades were poor (Cs,Bs at the best). Do you know if Bundy tried to attend some 1975/1976 law school classes as he wasn’t in custody all time? He was just a couple of weeks behind bars after line-up in October 1975, then he was released on bail until Da Ronch trial in March 1976.
Hi JRJ–
Good question. In my opinion (and I say so in the book), Bundy needed a new killing ground, so he headed to Colorado. Of course, he wasn’t living in Colorado, so after each return, he attempted to adopt a more normal life style. And maybe he also didn’t want to “blow off” law school entirely, due to a personal issue of having pride in being a law student, and he couldn’t say good-bye to that — at least not yet.
i think the answer to jrj questions is that he was going to UPS in the fall of 74 then moved to utah… no that isnt right is it, he was at UPS in spring of 74… huh…
i want to make a satement here… im a young guy with a wide array of interests and so like all of us i sometimes get caught up in the viral craze… i just saw a video called 3men 1 hammer and it really got my wheels turning about the state of mind of these.. whatever the people are that can do the things we talk about… if you have found your way here your a true crime buff so like me you’ve heard and read about horrible things but to get a glimpse of that video and i have to imagine that is what it was like for ted when he bludgeoned a woman to go thru something like that and be sexually aroused by it… there is just something shockingly evil and vile and malignant in the brains of these things parading around like they havbe a heart in their chest…. anyways the point of this was that i saw that video (be careful if u decide to check it out) and since im interested in bundy i couldnt help but make paralells between the bludgeoning and how it must have been near the same for bundy and marvel at his frame of mind…. disturbing
Kevin, excellent interview! It raised this question for me; if Bundy only attended class 3 times in the fall of 74, then why did he start to go to class more regularly the next spring? –Wasn’t he already too far behind to catch up?
Thanks, Bart!
Yes, very powerful, enthusiastic and engaging interview. And a good voice.
It reminds me of some The Teaching Compaing audio lectures I had used to listen while commuting to work – with professors so “infectiously” excited about their topics whether it was egyptology, astronomy or paleontology or whatever.
If case of audio version of “The Bundy Murders” you’d make a very charismatic author-narrator.
Why, Denise, everyone else has an accent! LOL!
And thanks for the kind words!
Kevin
I listened to your radio interview, Kevin (I forgot to mention I listened to the other one you posted here too). You are so enthusiastic when you talk!
You also have what I find a charming accent (but of course you don’t think you have an accent at all, lol!)
You can actually take this link and go straight to it:
Episode 22-THE BUNDY MURDERS-Kevin Sullivan 6/7/2010 – True Murder | Internet Radio | Blog Talk Radi
For those who might be interested, I was interviewed on TRUE MURDER the other night. Here’s the link:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/dan-zupansky1
Well, it’s Bundy who calls it a fetish, and either M&A or another Bundy writer who read something sexually sinister into this. But (a) a fetish is usually connected with a sexual act (eg shoe fetishists who want partners to wear particular kinds of shoes during sex, and that got kinda nasty with the killer, Jerry Brudos) and I don’t think there’s any evidence from anyone that Bundy insisted on wearing socks at intimate moments; (b) we often misuse the word ‘fetish’ and just apply it to something we like a lot or have to have!
I Googled on this and can’t find anything much – certainly nothing sinister. I’m with Kevin here: it may be odd but I don’t think you can read anything into it.
Hi Monica… Im doing this by phone, so Ill try not to screw this up. Well, i must admit, i never cared too much about Bundys sock fetish. In my opinion, it doesnt hold any secrets as to his diabolical nature. However, Bundy was always one to point out things in his life that could explain why he became what he became. As you know, he blamed pornography for his desire to slaughter women, but that was just bull s, if you onow what i mean. So i wouldnt place a great deal of emphasis on his love affair with socks.
Hi Kevin and all.
Just what was behind Ted’s apparent fetish for socks? I have heard of “foot fetishes”, but socks, lol?
I am currently reading M&A’s: Conversations with a killer, and here is what Ted himself had to say about it:
“One of my fondest dreams is to have all the underwear and socks i ever could conceivably use. It’s one of my fantasies. To be able to wear new socks everyday! And i must admit, i have had three or four dozen socks, all purchased on (stolen) credit cards.
“I have always felt deprived of underwear. I always felt that i would have really made it if i had all the socks and underwear i could ever use. Even in Pensacola, i went to a shopping mall and bought some socks. I was buying socks everywhere.
“This is for real. I mean, I’ve got a sock fetish. No question about it. I must have six or seven pairs right here with me in my cell.
“I am really sick when it comes to socks. These are some of the things for people who really want to know what makes Ted Bundy tick. They’re parts of the combination to the deepest, most secret recesses of my mind.”
How bizarre, yet intriguing! Does anyone here have any more information about this weird fetish of his (did he go into more detail about this in any of the other books written about him?) And does anyone have any information in regards to psychology behind it?
I’d be very interested to know, lol.
Remember from ‘The Stranger Beside Me’ Bundy bullshiting freshly reconquered Diane in 1973 about ‘a woman who had to make an abortion because of him’? Did you it was actually true? Liz really was pregnant with him at some point and chosed an abortion. She mentions it in ‘Phantom Prince’. Strange, I was certain it was another lie just to get rid of Diane.
Hammashoitola said: “This is fabulous/nice, ah”, “ah” being equivalent to “oioioi”.
My Finnish is a little rusty, Hamma.
What are you saying in your post.?
ihana tää, oioioi,
A note to self: I visited New York City with my family. This was in 2005 and the BTK Killer, Dennis Rader, was in the headlines and enjoying his 15 minutes.
I already forgot that animal but today I watched a documentary about him. It was odd when he started talking about “Factor X”, which, he said, made him kill. It was almost like listening to Bundy talk about the “Entity”. In fact, Rader has stated that “Factor X also made Ted from West Coast to kill”. This isn`t the actual quote but you get the point.
Yeah, not ground-breaking, but I found it interesting.
P.S. Rader, too, had a good childhood; no abusing, no violence, no nothing. And like Bundy, he was very much into bondage and possessing women.
Hi JRJ –
If you haven’t already taken advantage of Bart’s offer, just click on one of the listed dates. 2004 months (three, I think) will bring up the same 6 or 7 pages in which the prison guard features – he posted as KingCobraMan. The 2003 listings only bring up irrelevant pages.
Even the prison guard’s responses are a bit long to copy/paste here, but again, either Bart or I can post them to you.
Incidentally, I discovered a couple of days ago that Ann Marie Burr’s mother died a couple of years back at the age or 80 or 82; her husband died back in about 2003.
Hi Becky–
The Kim Leach murder is not one where I uncovered new info on the case. I have done so with four of the other Bundy murders, but the leach case is not one of them.
She did not go with bundy; Bundy grabbed her and forced her to get in the van with him. Bundy murdered her by stabbing and slicing her in and around the neck.
Bundy all but confessed to her murder during the deposition period of his trial, and later, actually did confess to her murder.
Hi Kevin, Will your book have any new information on the Kim Leach case? I am extremely interested, and have been for years, to know exactly what happened with her? She was a very smart girl, why did she go with him? Did he ever fully confess to Mr.Haigmaier? There are very few details regarding her and what he did to her. Will there be additional info in your book or is it vague as in most Bundy books?
JRJ
Don’t give up!
It took me really the whole weekend to make my way through this maze of Crime and Justice Board archived webpages. There were a lot a blind alleys – but I finally put my hands on some dozen or even more pages related to C&J board Bundy threads. I don’t want to speak on behalf of Denise – but I think – there are way too many posts to publish them here on ET. Plus I am afraid online publishing of this might be somehow against the copyright law. Frankly, from fragments that I have obtained, I have a feeling that Crime and Justice Board wasn’t that interesting, comparing it to ET. There wasn’t any true crime writer-poster there like Kevin but just people talking – some of them not better or less-informed. The best part was by this Florida State Prison Death Row Jerry Stano who posted under the nick of “KingCobraMan”.
If you want the fragments of C&J board I own – I can share it with you -in txt.files. Just contact me through the Headsman or find my e-mail address upthread – as I once put it in one of my posts (just a small investigative task for you 🙂
Bart
Still no joy Denise, I only get the forum’s Subforum listing page.
If you have the pages copied, it would really be appreciated if you post them here?
Hi, JRJ –
Try the link as a tiny url?
http://tinyurl.com/28krqzj
Hey, Kevin and others here –
I found this link which suggests strongly there were other Ted killings in Florida:
http://www.ci.pensacola.fl.us/ppd/pages.asp?pg_id=2482
You have to scroll right down for it, or ‘search’ on either Chapman or Bundy, but the final para goes:
“As Bundy’s date with “Old Sparky” neared, he requested that Chapman come to visit him on death row. Chief Chapman knew that Bundy wanted to tell where more bodies were buried. It was obvious that Bundy wanted to extend his life by having additional charges brought against him, therefore postponing his execution. Chapman refused to see Bundy, who was subsequently put to death.”
Denise!
I’m having a lot of trouble using the link you provided to get to the archives of the Crime & Justice Board. I’m wondering if you could copy and past the passages here –or at least the most interesting and relevant parts.
Thanks!