Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Kevin,
We would all I’m sure be interested if you were to post a complete list of the potential victims you uncovered who as you say based on MO and opportunity “fits Bundy to the proverbial T” here or in another appropriate venue. IF YOU DON’T, WHO WILL? Otherwise, the invaluable INSIGHT gleaned from your research may otherwise well be lost to the mists of time forever.
Thanks
If you go all the way back to comment 409 by Kevin Sullivan, there is a great deal of interest in the other murders that happened in the country from ’69 – . The photos in the papers after Memorial Day in 1969 are familiar to any students of the Bundy homicides. Two college co-eds were slaughtered, stripped of clothing, showed signs of molestation. Their bodies were left in a wooded area off the highway. The girls are cute, long hair, parted in the middle, both 19 and on holiday after their college went on break. These girls weren’t found in Ted’s usual haunts, Washington, Oregon, Utah, Colorado, or even Florida. Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry were found murdered in Ocean City, New Jersey.
Before being executed in Florida on Jan. 24, 1989, Bundy had gone through a series of taped psychological counseling sessions with a court-approved forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Art Norman.
Because of patient-doctor confidentiality, he couldn’t reveal what Bundy had said, but after he was dead, Norman reported that Bundy had told him, in a taped conversation, things that led him to believe Bundy could have been the killer – including a jaunt he took to the Jersey Shore.
Bundy, who at the time was a Temple University student, said that instead of taking a professor’s car to California right away, he drove to New York City, visited the sex shops off Broadway, and then drove down to Ocean City and looked at the girls on the boardwalk and beach.
“This is early summer. So after being more or less detached from people for a long period preceding period of months, he didn’t have many friends, didn’t go anywhere, just more or less had school and walks on the beach, and just gets a – (mumble)…, sees young women lined up like a vision, like a you know,…Eventually he found himself tearing around the place for a couple of days. So without really planning anything, he picked up a couple of young girls and ended up with…the first time he ever done it. Sort of a spontaneous kind of something he hadn’t planned, but something that had been building that was the edge…so when he left for the coast, it was not just getting away, it was more like an escape.”
Norman reported that Bundy had told him, in a taped conversation, what it was like for the killerWhile talking in the third person, Bundy was saying what it was like to leave Philadelphia for California, when he, “….decided to leave and go back home to the west coast, sort of like a defeated state of mind. But before he does he decides to take a little bit of a jaunt to what they call the Jersey Shore.”
“I’m convinced he did it,” Norman said. “And I believe that it was the first two murders that he got into. He had no reason to lie to me, and if he was lying, he had been saving this information for 20 years just to con somebody. Or is this just an amazing coincidence, that he just happened to be there on Memorial Day before he went back to the West Coast, and two girls disappeared in that area at the time? That is an amazing coincidence then, and I don’t think he had a little book of crimes that he knew about that he could use to throw his psychologist off. Everything else he told me has been borne out, so why should he lie just about that? I believe him.”
Authorites are just as steadfast that there not enough evidence to pin that crime on Bundy. Atlantic County Prosecutor Jeffrey Blitz, who is currently responsible for the investigation of the case, said, “I spoke to Dr. Norman. He relayed information that he had interviewed Bundy years ago and that he had come to the conclusion that Bundy was responsible for the co-ed murders.”
“I asked him if Bundy said he did it, and Norman said no. But based on what Bundy said, Norman said he could draw the conclusion that Bundy was responsible. That’s not satisfying,” Blitz said. “There are no details. And in Bundy’s confession a couple of days before he was killed he said nothing about New Jersey.”
“It’s a piece of evidence, a piece of that will be looked at as any other new piece of evidence will be. But you have to talk it for what it’s worth.”
On the status of the investigation of the co-ed murders today, nearly 20 years after the fact, Blitz said, “It’s an unsolved case.”
Yes, 100 victims is absurd in my opinion. And you’re correct in that there are scores of women who were murdered out in that part of the country, most of whom could be easily ruled out as a Bundy victim. However, when checking these cases, you’ll often find the one or two in the list which fits Bundy to the proverbial “T”. I remember looking at a few while researching the book, and the similarities to Bundy’s MO is astounding. I came away from these feeling Bundy most likely did murder these women; but again, it’s still speculation on my part, as we can never know for sure.
Kevin,
Some, notably prime investigator Bob Keppel, and author Ann Rule have suggested that Bundy may have killed more that 100! Bundy himself derided that posibility in discussions with Polly Nelson, indicating that the media “wouldn’t quote that figure if they knew how hard it was to do even one murder”. My sense is that Bundy’s ego was such that in making his last minute death row confessions, he would have wanted wanted the noteriety of being the most prolific/infamous serial killer of all time and 100 would have been a seductive number in this regard. So I think that the actual total he confessed to of 30 (made even as he was walking to the death chamber!) was probably accurate (sans, perhaps, as you suggest some child murders of which he would have been ashamed). Another indicator to me is that though In Riverman Bob Keppel mentions that his partner Roger Dunn backtracked and found 94 unsolved female murder cases between January 1969 and May 1974 –but how many of these can realistically be linked to Bundy (The Northest is notorious for serial killers and several were probably active concurrently with Bundy). Two of Bundy’s dumpsites were found –however there were no indications of unsuspected victims at these sites.
Your reaction?
Hi JRJ–
I think the 36 total is based on the addition of the “possibilities” that exist in various states. I personally don’t know which source created that figure (perhaps the FBI) but I feel, based on Bundy’s prolific killing spree, that 36 (and maybe more) is quite reasonable. I have in my case files pertaining to the Bundy murders, numerous reports of missing and murdered women which fit Bundy’s MO, but these are cases which were not a part of his confessions. Also, I personally think Bundy may have killed more girls than Ann Marie Burr and the child from Lake City; but of course, Ted did not want to talk about the murder of children.
Yes, Ron Holmes has a larger list of states where he said Bundy told him he had killed. He reiterated these states to me when I interviewed him in Jan. 2007. Of course, Bundy retracted these statements at the end, so who knows?
Take care,
Kevin
Kevin,
Like many who are fascinated with Bundy, I’m curious as to his final toll. At one point he indicated that there were victims in 6 states, then 7 and according to Ronald Holmes Bundy indicated 10 States in a prison interview. During his last minute confession marathon, Bundy Officially confessed to the following.
Bundy Officially Confessed Murders (7 States)
11 Murders in Washington
8 Murders in Utah
3 Murders in Colorado
3 Murders in Florida
2 Murders in Oregon
2 Murders in Idaho
1 Murder in California
30 Murders Total
One thing that I’m curious about is the FBI list of 36 known & suspected victims. I’d like to know more about this tally, like who’s on it and what criteria was used in putting it together.
Thanks,
JRJ
Hi Topelius–
I don’t mind the question at all, but let me explain a bit about writing and the writer. People who write, and I don’t mean someone who may write an occasional article for a journal or what not, but those of us who write books, do so out of our drive to truly understand the world we live in. Writers are, above all things, some of the most inquisitive people on the planet. And as writers, we strongly desire to convey to others all of the many secrets, or “hidden” things we discover along the way. It is, one might say, something we have to do.
Now, the real focus of my book was the monster, Theodore Bundy, and how he evolved from the inwardly tormented and psychopathic youth, to the refined killer of 1974-1975, to the
killer who was starting to implode from his own madness. That was the focus of the book. The women he murdered are a part of the story, but without the fiend (Bundy) none of this would have happened.
Money: Unlike the articles I wrote for “Snitch” where I was paid promptly after publication, I have not yet been paid a US penny for my work; and I began my research on the book in August 2006. Do I expect to make a good deal of money down the road for my efforts? Yes I do, but the first several thousand dollars will be little more than paying myself back for all the traveling expenses and monies I had to use obtaining the thousands upon thousands of case file papers pertaining to the Bundy case. It is, Topelius, very expensive to write a book in the first place, and unless you have a contract in advance (which I didn’t) there is always a risk that one might not be able to find a publisher. In my case, I knew that I would, and I was fortunate to sell the book in a matter of weeks after sending out the first batch of book proposals.
So you see, there is far much more to writing books than the average person might think.
Take care,
Kevin
I must rant for a moment: Kevin`s book for birthday present, cannot wait, hopefully the book arrives soon.
And, it`s official: I`ll be an exchange student next year. My host family lives in Texas. Cannot wait that either. And the parents are devoted Democrats which is nice 😉
Wondering, if they`ll consider me as a weirdo after asking to get to Washington to do a “Ted-tour”… lol.
Kevin, this question, first of all, is not to disrespect you in anyway, but have you thought about the morality of this book project; you earn money from writing about these women who were brutally killed.
AGAIN, I do not say that you`re aiming for money and fame by using these poor girls as a tool. The point was: Did you ever question your motives to write this book?
Take care, you`re awesome.
So true, Jason. I was just thinking it was an interesting aspect of the Florida info I received during my research. Bundy wasn’t going anywhere, but it’s interesting anyway!
I believe that once Bundy revealed his actual name to the authorities, there was no way he was going to be released on the streets anyway since he was a wanted man back in colorado to stand trial for the Caryn Campbell murder and he would of had to serve the remainder of his sentence as well as an extended period for escaping from prison. But since there was a possibility, however slight, that Bundy may win in his trial for the Chi Omega and Kim Leach murder, the investigators did not want to leave anything to chance.
The conversation I had with the Florida individual (a member of law enforcement close to the situation) told me a person told him that “they” (from another branch of law enforcement) were going to take care of it themselves, should Bundy escape justice and be released. And that he would be called and told that “they have a body discovered by the roadside and it looks like Bundy.” At that point, the Body would be turned over to the person I was interviewing. So, what we have here (I would say) is justified murder. They simply weren’t going to allow Bundy to kill again. Of course, this was a select group of individuals, going “outside” the law, so it would all be unofficial, but it was going to happen nevertheless.
In truth, none of this could ever have really happened, as Bundy was facing years behind bars for the credit card and burglary charges, even if he could slip past the murder charges.
KYGB – about Dobson, Ted put too much work into it for it to have been “for the hell of it.” Philip Nobile’s “The Making of a Monster” article details the genesis of the interview.
It was Liz to whom that Florida official said “Mister Bundy is bargainin’ for his life. We’re bargainin’ for his death.”
And you’re right Ted would have been killed in general population. He wouldn’t have lasted a year. So I guess the state actually added to the families’ torment by letting him live nearly a decade before they got around to taking care of it themselves.
Kevin, I’m sure what that Florida iindividual communicated to you was based in fact. I’ve always felt that the main reason for the plea agreement that was offered to Bundy was to get him in the prison system. Immediately after accepting the plea deal, Ted would have been moved into the general population.
After media scrutiny had died down, Ted would have been the main guest at a little shank party or killed while trying to escape. Never underestimate the Florida prison system. They take care of their own and have been doing so for years. Gettin Ted into population meant that Florida authorities could have handled the problem themselves. And it would be way quicker and cheaper than “offical channels”.
You don’t commit the kinds of crimes Ted did and leave Florida alive. Ted didn’t either.
Make that KYGB!!!
How’s it going, KYBG?
I had one Florida individual tell me (off the record, of course) that they had no intention of allowing Ted to leave Florida alive. That is, if he were somehow able to beat the charges against him, they were going to kill him.
Interesting, eh?
Jason–
if I’m correct about how this murder happened, then I can’t say why Bundy told that story to Polly Nelson. There was no reason to lie to her, but I believe he did, and I find it absurd that he said he cut her up after returning to the site the next day. I don’t believe for a second he drove all that distance back the next day, as he was getting settled in Salt Lake. And, like I said, his confession doesn’t leave the impression that this murder was anything more than a quick kill for him.
I believe Bundy killed only two women in Idaho. Had there been more victims there, Bundy would have confessed to them to buy more time.
KYGB –
That is definately true and the Florida detectives told him that such a thing was simply not going to happen. It amazes me that he felt the Florida authorities were going to make deals with him like he had a choice in the matter. This situation is also similar to Bundy’s situation just before his execution. He wanted Bob Martinez to delay his execution so that he could be given time to confess. The funny part here is that he felt he needed a year so that he could go through and remember all of the information on the murders he was involved in and also two extra years as a reward!!!!! This goes back to KYGBs comment of Bundy trying to take control of his situations but here any reasonable person would find that he must had been delusional to think that he stood a chance.
One other point on Ted and his attempts to move his imprisonment to Washington from Florida. That was all Ted’s plan. No one from florida had anything to do with it or endorsed it in any way shape or form. I always remember a quote from a Florida detective on that. Ted had some of his support group working on getting the deal lined up. A female, (Carole Boone? Liz
K?) was attempting to help Ted along these lines and was questioning a Florida detective. The Florida man told her “Look. Ted Bundy is fighting for his life. The State of Florida is fighting to kill him”
That was it. The State of Florida was not going to let Ted go anywhere while he was still alive. And that’s what happened. Ted got to leave after he was dead.
Thanks for the comments.
So do you believe that Bundy had lied to Polly Nelson about the events that took place the night he killed the hitchhiker in Idaho? I found Polly’s story odd since she stated that Bundy said he returned to the site the next day to take more pictures of her dead body and also cut the body up into pieces. According to the story in your book, after having sex with the girl, He pushed the girl into a river (I believe, i dont have the book with me). It is possible that Bundy had lied to Polly or could had confused the crime with another one of his since he would of had to have driven along way from Idaho back to Salt Lake City and then back to Idaho. Or could it have been Bundys third victim in Idaho altogether?
Good points, Jason–
First, we must keep in mind that the call to Liz came early in his apprehension, and as such, his exhaustion (as Mike Fisher said it would) made him more pliable, whereby the confessions might come out in droves, one might say. By the time he dealt with Katsaris (a person he despised) he was rested and more than willing to keep his secrets safe within him. But, you are correct, that had Bundy still been in a mind-set to confess when he met him, the sheriff’s actions against him would have been enough to cause Bundy to “clam up”.
When I wrote about the killing of the Idaho hitchhiker, I was well aware of the “story” he told, and which is recounted in the above mentioned book; however, I simply didn’t believe it. And there is nothing (in my opinion) to indicate from his confession to the Idaho investigator that anything like that transpired. On the other hand, there was every reason to believe, based on the scant answers he gave concerning her murder, that it occurred like many of the other ones he confessed to: That is, an initial blow (or blows) to the head, followed by sex and the act of strangulation. So in my opinion, that which I’ve written is the most likely picture of the terrible events which befell that still-unknown young woman that September 2, 1974. Still, Jason, an excellent question!
Kevin
KYGB, Kevin : –
It seemed that the talks Bundy gave to the detectives in Florida was an indicator that he was willing to confess to his crimes only if he was to be transported to Washington. But the thing is if Bundy’s part of the deal fell through, there is still no question that he had the information on all of these crimes and possibly if Ken Katasaris had not dealt with the whole situation like he did, maybe Ted would have been willing to confess. Remember though, Bundy did make an oblique confession to Liz so the possiblity that Bundy would have still confessed with his family present is still a possibility.
Another question I have is regarding the first known Idaho murder Bundy was involved in. According to your book Kevin, Bundy had knocked the hitchhiker unconscious at some point during their trip in the car. This had caused her substantial damage to her cranium. In contrast, the Defending the Devil book states that Bundy knocked the hitchhiker unconscious once and then a second time, and even then he still managed to order her to kneel on her hands and knees and pose for pictures. I was wondering whether she would still be in a position to do what was told by her abductor after being knocked out once or twice?
Hi Jason–
Having read through all the Florida transcripts, I can tell you that Bundy would have loved to have been released to the Washington authorities, but that was never going to happen. Patchen, Chapman, Bodiford, were in no position to make such deals, and without belaboring the point to Bundy, basically told him it wasn’t going to happen. Even so, Ted the sociopath, was still attempting to control the situation and was thinking that offering such “vital” info, they might relent. But remember, Florida was never going to turn Bundy over to anyone else, and they never wavered in their decision to try him for the 3 murders he committed in the state. I also believe, if the impossible could have occurred for him (a return to WA) then I believe Bundy would have confessed to almost everything he’d done; but again, he might have screwed himself out of it at the last moment due to his self destructive nature that was so much on display during the Florida trials.
There were several factors that combined to prevent Ted from accepting the negotiated plea bargain from Florida. The rivalry with Ken Katasaris was a huge part of this.
Ted was a nutty control freak and taking what Florida gave him meant he would lose his control. Ted did want to serve the life sentence in Washington. There was no way Florida was going to turn Ted over to any other state to serve his time. So that was also a big factor in causing Ted to reject the plea.
Ted’s mother and other loved ones came out to Florida to be present for the plea deal. Ted couldn’t face the music (then) and admit guilt in front of them, either.
Logically, this guy who had killed 30+ women just couldn’t accept the fact that he had to admit this and be locked up for the rest of his life. It just wasn’t in his make-up.
A few years later, Ted would have given anything to have that plea deal back. But at the time, his own corkscrew brain wouldn’t allow him to make this life-saving move.
Actually it was just the one question for the moment…..
After reading the book, I have a few questions and theories I would like to put forth and see what everyone thinks on it: –
1. After Bundy’s final arrest in Pensacola, Florida according to the inteviews he gave to Norm Chapman and Don Patchen, he was willing to strike a deal where he would exchange information regarding some, if not all, of the murders he committed for a chance to be extradicted back to Washington to be close to his family. During this period, the comments he made to the detectives indicated that Bundy did not want the bother of going to trial (possibly due to the stress of going through the Carol DeRonch trial and the build up to the Caryn Campbell trial) and wanted to get out of the limelight and thus begin to bare all for a chance to be back in an institution in Washington. By the time Ken Katasaris came into the picture and read out the indictment to the news cameras with Ted present (by which no doubt Ted would have been highly embarressed at least to begin with) it was clear that there was a kind of ‘rivalry’ between the two. Since Ken was determined to ‘break’ Bundy in terms of getting him to confess to his crimes and possibly ‘exploited’ him to the media, is it possible that this was the point where Bundy chose not to confess because he didnt want to give Ken the satisfaction of seeing him in defeat?
What do you think?
It`s interesting that Dobson`s still convinced that Ted told him the truth, that is, pornography made him kill. This is from Glenn Beck`s show, Dobson is being interviewed at the end of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJJlgNf06ek
Sidenote: It`s scary that there are still people like Beck and Dobson in the US even though it`s the 21st century… Oh well.
yeah ill ave a look for that video.
And on another note. Dobson actually interviewed ted for an hour, but he edited the final version down to a half hour. would have been interesting to hear the full interview and i believe dobson only included the pornography parts cause he wanted porn to be the main focus of it.
I remember a guy talking about the interview where he said ted started laughing when talking bout one of the girls he murdered. yet i believe dobson cut that out cause that would of definately showed teds real emotions and lack of remorse which dobson stupidly believed that ted had remorse. I think ted was more sad for himself dieing the next morning.
Richard or Barry…. if either of you remember where that little snippet of the Dobson video is, go ahead and post it.
That would be interesting to see.
Ted was playing Dobson all the way. Just one last manipulation for the hell of it. Gave TRB something to do.
He was a sick man right to the end.
The snippet of the lights going out during the Dobson interview was included in another Dobson video, one of a series aimed at America’s youth. I’m not sure of the title off the top of my head.
Hi Barry–
If you look through the comments in this thread, you’ll see some interesting comments I made concerning pornography and Bundy’s talk with Dobson. But let me say, as far as I’m concerned, Bundy was not being truthful with Dobson, and he knew pornography had nothing to do with his killing women.
Yes, Bundy may have killed Ann Marie Burr, and I write about this in my book.
I’m not at all concerned about what Gerard Schaefer has said about Ted Bundy or anything else.
I have quite a bit of new info in my book about Lynette Culver, and how Bundy captured her.
You should request your local library to obtain a copy of my book. I know numerous libraries have already stocked it, and I expect that number to significantly increase. But if your local library decides not to carry it, you can request a copy through inter-library loan. so good luck!
Take care,
Kevin
Hi Kevin. This is my first comment. Glad came across this site.
Im being studing bundy for many years now. i find him very fascinating and im learning something new about him as each day passes. i have a few questions that i would like to hear your thoughts on:
1. What did u make of teds final interview with james dobson. did you belevie any of his statements about pornography led him down this path to destruction. Many say that he was just doing a con job to the end and he had dobson wrapped round his little finger. I believe that dobson was a part to blame as he was trying to use ted bundy on why porn is bad. Dobson was in an anti-porn campaign and i beleive he used bundy as a good way to see porn as a bad thing. Bundy had many thought provoking quotes in that interview but maybe he was just trying to get another stay of execution.
A funny deleted scene of teds final interview i seen somewhere was when during the interview the lights in the prison suddenly went out and ted and dobson where in total darkness and ted said “oh i think there just testing out the chair”. I cant find that little scene anywhere now pity was a real gem lol
2. My next question regards when do u think ted comitted his first murder. many believe that ted murdered when he was 15 when a little 8 year old girl that lived beside ted went missing. Ted has said that he didnt kill her but Ann Rule even believes that she was teds first victim.
3. Also you know the serial killer Gerard Schaefer. I watched a video of schaefer where he describes talking to ted in prison and ted would get annoyed cause gerard told him that he had more victims than he had and he was better than him. A very interesting point he made was that ted followed his case in the newspapers and he said there was an article where the writer describes how gerard abducted 2 girls on one day and murdered them. Gereard has admitted that the story was not true and he said that ted had read that story and went out and copied it killing those 2 girls down at the beach, Janice ott and Denise Nasland on the same day. He said that ted did this as some sort of tribute to him. In reality ted had 36 victims while gerard had only 34, but he would still say he had more to annoy ted.
4. And i just read today about one of teds murder victims. A 12 year old called Lynette Culver. Bundy claimed he abucted her and took her to a room in the Holiday Inn. There he raped her and drowned her in a bathtub. The minute i read that i got the horriffic image of ted actually doing that. Scary stuff. The more i read on ted the more depraved he becomes. In another incident he anally raped a girl while having her face buried in a puddle of mud. What was the most horrific thing u ever read that bundy done.
Im sure i will have plenty more questions. And hopefully i can get a chance to read your book. Im still a student so my money unfortunately has to go elsewhere for the time being.
Well all i can say is that Bundy was an Enigma, and only he knew who he really was
Thanks Again
Barry
I paid more than that, Claire (£35, +p&P), so it’s still a bargain!
I think it started off at £28 an is now £32 (not gone up by much). I may be wrong on that original price. It does state it should be £38 RRP. So it’s still a discount.
Hi Claire–
Sorry to hear the price has risen in the UK, when it’s actually been reduced by $ 5 on Amazon in the US. In any event, I know you’re gonna enjoy it.
See ya…
I’m still alive, I’ve just been very busy with my new job. I’ll get reading through everyone’s posts later. I’m just waiting on your book Kevin, I wish I’d ordered it now before Amazon raised the price. I had a massive mobile phone bill and have had to pay out for some repairs to my house so that’s why it’s been ordered late.
The book should be with me by the end of this week.
Hi Gray–
As I touch upon in the book, Bundy loved attention. His greatest desire (at least by 1974, that is) was to destroy women and use their dying and dead bodies for sex. This was the single most important aspect of his life. But the next in line for Bundy was that he occupy center-stage: That is, once he was exposed to the world, he decided to use it to his advantage to make himself well known. Perhaps in the years before the killings began, he aspired to become “famous” through the practice of law, or becoming gov. of Washington State. But after capture, he choose to become infamous, and that was okay with him too. and you’re correct, he did seek people to observe him; he strongly desired for folks (especially, those he considered experts) to listen and observe him, for it was the supremely focused attention he craved. Still, many important things about him came forth at these times, and that was a good thing overall!
I would continue a bit in this vein, but my wife is hammering me to hurry up so we can leave, lol!
Take care,
Kevin
Kevin: Sometimes the subject of exactly what makes Bundy so interesting comes up (that he is is shown by the sheer number of comments). To me one aspect is that various quotes from Bundy seem to show that he was capable of making himself the object of contemplation, looking at his own depravity in an objective-sounding manner. For example he says (approximately) to Michaud and Aynesworth) “A person who has become somewhat subordinate to bizarre desires and abducts a girl and kills her finds himself in a great deal of panic'” Also he supposedely said to the detectives in Florida “but I’m the most cold-hearted son of a bitch you’ll ever meet.” This capacity to be “the observer” doesn’t seem to come up in interviews with other serial killers. What do you think, Kevin?
Gray
Great review, Jeff! I think that one’s a “keeper”! Lol!
Thanks again!
Kevin
Hi Jeff–
After writing this brief note, I’ll check out the link to the review!
Yes, at times it is a small world. I think if we (and I mean everybody, here) were to look a little closer at the situations swirling around us all the time, we’d see many “connections” in life that we are unaware of. A perfect example is a neighbor I had as a young man (just before moving out of my parents’ house). I would always wave at this guy as I would pass his house if he was out in his yard mowing the lawn or doing other things. I knew the man was a retired doctor, but that’s about it. Well, after he passed away, there was an article in the local paper about this guy, and how he was General George Patton’s personal doc for six moths during WW2. I later spoke with his wife, and told her how sorry I was about his passing, AND, as a student of history and WW2 how sorry I was that I didn’t know about his past, as I would have loved to have spoken to him about his association with the famous general.
Anyway, you just never know whose path you might be crossing!
Take care, and feel free to ask additional questions.
kevin
Hey Kevin,
I write for a couple “horror related” websites and posted a review for the book here:
http://www.benevolentstreet.com
The direct link is: http://www.benevolentstreet.com/?p=2018#more-2018
And an interesting sidenote- my buddy who created this particular website just so happens to reside in KY (which I just happned to notice is where you are from as well when I put down the book and happened to glance at the back), and they just did an article about him in Richmond paper. Small world…but Ted Bundy seemed to become a part of all of it.
And, of course, this intrigued mind will, no doubt, have some more questions for you.
Well, I did not hit the submit bar, so I guess I’ll now continue:
I don’t know what part the acts of other killers may have played a part in Ted’s life. I do know he had a highly developed fantasy world where he cultivated the most hideous of thoughts, and it is this which really gave birth to his life of murder. But I can’t speak of any prior influence concerning other murderers.
If Bundy did in fact kill Robertson, then one could say it’s a bit of a departure from his usual MO. But on the other hand, those victims Bundy chose not to bury, were often left near logging roads, or main roads, or in the case of Laura Amie, near a rest stop or something of that nature (I’m not looking at my book at the moment!).
see ya!
Hi Jeff–
You know, Bundy wouldn’t necessarily have to engage in intercourse with a rotting corpse to gain sexual fulfillment. Just being able to view “his work”, if you will, would probably be enough to launch him in to a state of high arousal. Of course, depending upon the amount of decay, Bundy could very well have used a part of the body (hand, head, etc) to assist him at that time. Being the demented individual we know him to be, I’m certain he was able to come up with something that would make a normal person want to puke,
Thanks Kevin!
You said it youself- Only Bill knows how much Bundy said to him and when…
and that is the biggest missing piece of the Bundy puzzle. I really hope Bill decides to share this information for the inquiring minds looking to understand this as thorougly as possible. He said in an interview how one of Bundy’s ultimate goals was to recreate the violent covers of detective magazines with these dead bodies. That is a pretty unique motivation when it comes to serial killers. But obviously, that was only 1 of his motivations…and you said it best in your book with the line that Bundy had a “potpourri of ideas” when it came to sex with his victims bodies.
A couple more questions in regards to your thoughts on the necrophilia… Bundy being such a self-concerned person, wouldn’t he have been afraid of contacting infection or disease in having sex with a corpse after it had been rotting away in the wilderness for days? And if part of his “excitement” came from orgasming while the victim was dying, why do you think he would want to return to the corpses for more when that sensation would be gone and the body would be stiff and cold?
Do you have any idea on what serial-killers before Bundy may have given him some ideas about necrophilia through his reading about them? Jerry Brudos perhaps? But who else?
And why do you think Bundy left Shelley Robertson’s body where she would be found easily instead of his usual “hidden” woods, avoid detection for as long as possible technique?
Thank you for for your avid search for answers.
Hi Jeff–
I believe most killers have a connection to the ground in which they murder their victims, or where they place the bodies. Just one example: Arthur Shawcross was observed masturbating on a bridge where he had previously dumped a body. Returning to the scene of the crime allows these diabolical folks to again make contact with a part of what has happened. No, the body nay not be there, but the surroundings remain the same, thereby giving these killers a sense of permanency that they so utterly enjoy.
Yes, Bundy would have had to freeze the heads, or they would have wilted very quickly. Can you imagine the demented state of mind a person has to possess to want to do this? Unbelievable!
Caryn Campbell: I believe Bundy struck Caryn in the head with the tire iron (knocking her out, of course; and maybe permanently) and had sex with her (intercourse, perhaps anal)
and no doubt strangled her too. For Bundy, this would have been no trouble at all, due to his high state of arousal, and his propensity of removing the front passenger seat, allowing him more room for such things. And I’m thinking he did not touch her till she was knocked out.
Necrophilia: Sex with the dead or dying for Ted Bundy was very important, and he loved this activity beyond words. But by the time the murders began in Florida, it was an eruption of homicidal violence where his greatest need was only to kill. Not only was sex with the dead out of the question here, I don’t believe it carried the same importance. From all that we know, it appears Bundy was desiring only to murder these girls, obtain a sexual release at the time, and move on down the road, so to speak.
Bill Hagmaier: Only Bill knows how much Bundy said to him and when. But as I mentioned earlier, he was present for every confession, and Bundy considered Bill a true friend. Therefore, I can’t imagine Bill ever asking him a question (after Bill had gained his trust) and Bundy not answering truthfully. Bundy really liked and trusted Bill Hagmaier, so, as far as I’m concerned (like I said in an above post) if Bundy’s attorneys say one thing, and Bill Hagmaier said Ted told him something else, I’m gonna believe the testimony coming from Bill. It just makes sense to me.
I hope this helps!
Take care,
Kevin
Bundy told Fisher he kill Campbell with a single blow to the head. He then stated he “did his thing right there in the car”, meaning having sex with her still-warm body. This was a favored form of necrophilia with TRB.
( the “single blow” was a lie. Campbell was struck a few times and had a cut on her ear.)
IIRC, Campbell showed evidence of having sex, but it was inclusive if it was her killer or her boyfriend was the partner.
Kevin,
You nicely described how Bundy had a “potpourri of ideas” when it came to sex with his victims (in any state). And it seems that the necrophilia became a large part of his murders. This, in itself, brings out a lot of questions. Now, I gather that there was no necrophilia involved in the Chi O murders, due to his need to get out of there quickly… but in most of his previous murders, it seemed to be a large component.
When Bundy met with Keppel to consult about the “Riverman” cases, he was convinced that the killer would return to the crime scene (most likely for necrophila purposes). Since Bundy seemed to have his own “warped” sense of enjoyment with dead bodies after death, how would he have known that others would also have this same taste for necrophilia? How could he have possibly predicticted that others would also return for necrophilia? Or how would he have known that other killers would have that same feeling about the grounds being “sacred” to them?
If he kept 4 heads at his apartment, would it be likely that he would have kept them in the freezer? The time span between the kills would mean that most of the heads would be in severe states of decay, and I’m sure a rotting head must smell pretty awful.
I enjoyed your well-researched coverage of the Campbell abduction, and think that it is probably the most likely and most detailed telling of this event in print. When Bundy later told Fisher that “I did my thing right there in the car,” was he partially referring to necrophilia? And were they able to determine if she had been sexually assaulted in her autopsy?
With it being freezing cold outside, that must have been pretty difficult to have sex with a corpse in a small VW… unless he made her do something sexual with him while she was still alive, before he killed her??
Among oher things, Bundy seemed to want Bill to help him understand what he was…and the big why. Without fully revealing things, it would be hard to determine an answer. Since Bill became his closest confidant, it would seem that if he told anybody the full depths of his depravity, it would be him. And a big question- When did he tell Bill? Did he confess to Bill a few years before his execution or did he only finally reveal details to him on the last 4 days as well?
Thanks for your insight!
Thanks, Jeff, for the kind words.
A few points: First, I was fortunate to receive such very good information from Mike Fisher, the former Colorado investigator. I believe he has given me more info into the murder of Julie Cunningham than has been published before. And, I have included the statement Bundy gave Fisher concerning the Caryn Campbell murder. The sequence of events concerning the killing of the hitchhiker in September of 1974, and the events of the Lynette Culver murder have now been laid bare for the world to see; and other things have come to light in my book as well. AND YET…..I still have questions too! Indeed, the mystery that still surrounds many of these events, I hope, will be enough to draw in future writers to search out the truth in those areas that I may have missed. What they will uncover, no one can say, for Bundy purposely took much info with him. I consider myself lucky to have gained the trust of so many participants in the case, from detectives, to the friends and coworkers of the killer, to the individuals who were friends of the victims. For these folks carry secrets too!
Bill Hagmaier: Bill was with Bundy for every confession (except when Randy Everitt returned inside the prison to receive clarification on the Culver murder) and so a book written by him would be interesting indeed. Of course, that info has been available, in one form or another (but not always utilized) and for the most part, remains part of the official record. But Bundy also spoke to Bill privately (and perhaps much of this has been recorded) and it would, in my view, be this information that could be very revealing indeed. I know that Bill told me once that he was on a news program, and that a 12 or more minute tape was played where Bundy talks of various things, but this tape is not easy to locate, and even I don’t have a copy of this particular meeting.
I believe Bundy gave some of the most graphic confession (Georgann Hawkins) to Bob Keppel. But even here, there were things Bundy wouldn’t talk about.
The severed heads: It only stands to reason that Bundy, who had as many as 4 heads with him at one time, would have used them for sexual gratification, as this was his “thing” you might say. Also, that some of the skulls had the upper teeth removed, in my view, is the silent testimony to what he was doing with them. I’m convinced of it, anyway.
Again, Jeff, I’m glad you enjoyed the book!
Take care,
Kevin
I just finished the book, and as an inquistive mind who has long been fascinated by the Bundy case, I can tell you that it was not a disappointment.
As I expected, I was still left with questions (do they ever really end?), but i also found myself having felt like more pieces to the puzzle had come together.
I think you did a good job on summarizing the events, spending the appropriate amount of time on most of them, and filling in some of the many gaps that the Bundy saga has left behind.
I enjoyed it and will be uploading my review to some sites soon.
Now, the questions begin! LOL. A previous poster made a GREAT point that it appears much of the Bundy books shy away from the actual details of the murders…and that there has to be a greater answer out there (WRITE THAT BOOK BILL HAGMAIER!!!!!). It seems like this piece of the puzzle is always withheld…and the question becomes: Is it withheld because nobody really fully knows OR because they think it’s too much information for us to know/handle? Does Keppell know more than he’s telling us? Why hasn’t Bill revealed all the details? It feels like there’s still a lot to learn from Bill’s time with Ted. Is this information purposely held back for some reason? How do you feel about this Kevin?
How can we ever fully study and understand the full extent of a crime without all the gory details (as horrific as they may be)?
You noted in your book about how Bundy had used some of the severed heads for oral sexual gratification purposes. Was this in fact confirmed by Bill or elsewhere? I can believe it, but I’m curious where this fact came to light??
I’m glad you took the journey of creating this book, Kevin. And I think that, for the most part, it creates a good illustration of this saga for both long time crime buffs and intrigued newbies. It’s been a while since we got a good Bundy book and this is a nice reawakening.
Yes, I do have some thoughts on this oddity. All of Bundy’s victims are now well-known by virtue of what has befallen them. Indeed, Bundy himself has gained far more of a reputation (an evil one) than if he’d become, say, gov. of Washington State. It’s sad to say, but everyone connected with this case will be remembered long after they are gone from this earth, for they are now a part of a well-known and infamous story.
On p 130 you say Julie Cunningham would “be immortalized as one of his victims.” This is a troubling irony, that only as long as he is remembered they will be remembered. Do you have any thoughts on that?