1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer

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It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.

Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.

Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?

The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.


Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)

Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.

ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?

I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.

From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.

Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.

The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?

The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.

But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.

Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?

Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.

You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?

They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.

I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?

They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.

Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way

How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?

Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.

However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.

Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.

* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.

Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:

On this day..

Possibly related executions:

8,544 thoughts on “1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer”

  1. Great response guys:
    Jason, I think that he used other names AFTER Lake Sam because he learned from his mistake with Ott. I don’t recall his use of fake names prior to Lake Sam (If I’m wrong please point out where): this was his greatest mistake, and the one which most led to his downfall. The sketch and VW wouldn’t have been enough to narrow the pool in my opinion.

  2. Hi Kris–

    Well, there was plenty of terror being observed in other victims, and at other times. For example, once Kathy Parks understood her late night meeting with the articulate dark-haired man was actually an abduction, there was fear in abundance. Indeed, for all of these women who were not smashed in the head by a crowbar, fear always filled them once they understood what was happening, and Bundy was aware of this every time.

    Bundy’s foray into pornography was nothing more than an attempt to blame something for what he had become, and it is (in my opinion) a terrible thing that Rev. Dobson fell for his antics. Watching pornography, as I’ve said before, has nothing to do with wanting to murder women and cutting off their heads. It just doesn’t work that way.

    Bundy knew he was going to die in a few hours, and so I don’t think he used the porno talk to stall for time, for time was all but up, and he knew it. It was just a foolish attempt at painting a better picture of himself at the end.

    take care,

    Kevin

  3. It was stated in the book and prior posts about TB getting a huge thrill out of creating terror during the Ott/Naslund murders, the terror being a fuel for TB and part of his satisfaction.
    So I have to ask, why didn’t he try to do this again? It appears that all the other murders were 1 on 1. If creating terror in the soon to be victim was such a thrill for him, I feel that he would have done more of this. That is why the theory of TB being excited by creating fear is hard to swallow to a large extent. He would have done it again and again if it was that big a thrill, don’t you think?

    What was the real motive behind that Dobson interview? It appears by that point TB everyone knew he was the killer and he knew he was going to die. So why would he waste his time talking about pornography in his last hours? It really doesnt add up. He didnt give a darn about warning society, as he didnt care about anyone but himself and his family. The only reason that makes any logical sense would be that he was doing it with hopes that somehow it would postpone his execution by showing that he was willing to confess, talk, and fake remorse.
    What do you think? Was it just a last minute hope to delay the execution? And what would have made him truly believe that talking about pornography as a catalyst could possibly delay execution? Lets hear your thoughts.

    Kris

  4. It is odd that Ted used his real name with Janice Ott since he had used a wide variety of fake names with a number of his other victims. It may have just been a slip of the tongue or he may have felt confident that once Janice agreed to assist him with his sailboat and they both arose to leave, Ted may have thought telling her his real name wouldnt make a difference since in his eyes, once they leave the park, she was as good as dead anyway. However he didnt appreciate that people were eavesdropping on their conversation and this is what assisted the police in their investigation. I believe Ted gave his name just as they stood up and were getting ready to leave so he felt confident that after he persuaded her to leave with him, he felt it didnt make a difference whether he said his real name or not.

    Thats my opinion..:)

  5. Good Question JRJ

    I was gona ask about that as well. I believe ted liked games with the police and thought he was clever enough to get away even giving his own name.

    My other theory is that maybe he wanted the girls to address him by his real name and he probably got a better satisfaction or thrill so to speak that they called him “Ted”. The girls he approached he probably knew he was gona kill them so if he used his real name it wudnt matter cause they wuold be dead soon anyway.

    Maybe He wanted them to remember his name before they died.

    Well thats my theory

  6. Hi everybody! I’ve been in Nashville, TN all weekend and without a PC, so I’ll take these one by one. If I stop in the proverbial mid-stream, it’s because I’m out the door again with my lovely wife,(BTW: On page 102 in my book, there is a picture of See’s Candies where Bundy approached Carol DaRonch. Well, that photo – like all of the Utah photos of locations in my book – were taken by me, and my wife is sitting on the bench and is in the picture!)

    Okay, here we go… Shane, Bundy told Bob Keppel about the decapitated heads.

    Barry: The astute Richard Duffus answered your first question, and that was good! As far as empathy concerning his thievery, well, I think his remark about the VW in Florida may be somewhat true, and I cover that in my book. But for the most part, no, as Bundy was very much a thief and a liar; and he was accomplished at these two things long before becoming a murderer. And yes, it’s very interesting to contemplate such things!

    JRJ: I’m not sure Bundy covered this with anyone, but I speak of it in my book, as I’m sure he must have has second-thoughts later on.

  7. Is there any indication that Bundy ever indicated why he used his name at Samamish -was it sheer arrogance? Did he ever ever explicitly regret this mistake?

    Thanks

  8. Thanks Richard for the info. Must read that book.

    While i was reading the stranger beside me. Ann Rule says bundy would steal cars…but only from people he felt could afford to lose it ? ?Like in one incident after he stole a car he could see that someone had put a lot of work into it, so he left it back because he felt bad !

    So did ted actually had a litte bit of empathy in real life. But i guess when it came to murder his empathy faded away further after each killing.

    Still interesting to say the least. What yous think?

  9. “Conversations with a Killer” p 253 or 258 (depending which version you have) spoken to Hugh Aynesworth on 11/12/80.

  10. Pingback: ExecutedToday.com » Executed Today’s Second Annual Report: Once Bitten, Twice Die

  11. Hi Kevin again

    I found a very interesting quote appartently said by bundy that i want to clarify with you to see if its true. he said

    “i’m not an animal, and I’m not crazy and I’m not a split personality. That’s all there is to it. People refuse to believe that. That’s their problem. There’s nothing in my background, I swear to God, and I know it: I’ve analyzed my own background and I know there’s no doubt in my mind that there’s nothing in my background, no one factor or collection of factors that would explain or would otherwise lead one to believe that I was capable of murder”.

    Do u know where or when bundy said this to someone, as i just found it on a trivia section about him on IMDB.

    I hope he really did say it as i find it one of the most interesting of bundys quotes as ive heard. It would put any doubt into those who beleieve his upbringing had something to do with his murderous tendicies.

    Any info would be much appreciated.

    Thanks Again

  12. since its such a popular part of the story i never thought to ask how we know he said he decapitated victims. of course i havent read all the books but the ones i have read i felt sure would have mentioned such a thing, so maybe somebody can tell me why we are so sure aboout that

  13. JRJ–

    You could be correct: It may be from WA, but personally, I would be a little surprised he would keep that in the bag for such a long time. But maybe he did.

    I thought about Bundy using the belt for binding, but he had those bed sheet strips to use, as well as the clothesline rope, so probably not. But then again, this is Bundy we’re talking about, so we can never know for sure, LOL!

    The belt was in the bag with Jerry Thompson when he came to Louisville, as were the tins containing the pubic hair of some of his victims, and the head hair of Carol DaRonch. I don’t know if the belt was found in the car or the bag. But it has significance or it wouldn’t have been part of the grouping which has been set apart from other things found in the car, and kept together as evidence. That’s all I can tell you about this.

  14. Hi Melinda–

    Well, you’re correct, Bundy deserved killing, that’s for sure. But, in my opinion, there are many very vile people out in society, willing to murder you, and anyone you happen to love. These folks are predators, and no amount of therapy is going to help them. And when these monsters pass the place from thinking about committing evil, and start killing the innocent (and emotionally murdering their family) as far as I’m concerned, these turds need to die. They have forfeited their right to share the planet with the rest of us. We as a society need to plant them firmly beneath the soil.

    Also, once these vermin are dead, the living victims of their crimes, more often than not, feel a sense of relief once they are dead.

    This idea that we, as a society, must find “good” in these folks, or, more appropriately, that we lessen ourselves per our act of taking away their breath, is, in my opinion, utterly absurd.

    I guess you can tell I’m pro-death penalty, LOL!

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Kevin

  15. Kevin,
    How can you be so certain the belt wasn’t from a Washington victim?
    Was it part of the Murder kit per se? Or was it just found in the car?
    -Could it have been used to help bind the victims’ bodies or was it just a momento?

  16. I was in Tallahassee for the murders, and still there for the execution. Most of my friends are anti death penalty, as I am, but we sort of thought that time… if it had to happen… that was the right guy. Not so many folk out with black armbands and candles as usual. However, the next day, many folks reported VERY bad dreams… bloody nasty things, and very creepy feelings all around. Glad it’s over.

  17. So true. But somewhere along the line, perhaps they did make an attempt to locate the owner; or to at least rule out whether it belonged to any of the known victims. There is always a chance it came from one of the 3 unknown Utah victims, but again, I just don’t know.

  18. I imagine the detectives didn’t do a lot with the belt. They would want to run down a lot of the the other evidence before taking the belt around and showing it to friends of the victims, relatives, etc.

    That would be a pretty painful process and there were a lot better fish to fry in the investigation at that point.

  19. No clue, JRJ. I’ve wondered if the authorities ever made an attempt to locate the individual it belonged to, but perhaps not. I think the only thing we can say with certainty is that it does not belong to a Washington State victim. Utah, Idaho, Colorado? Who knows!

  20. Kevin,

    Any clue as to which of the girls, the belt from Bundy’s murder kit might have belonged?

    Thanks
    JRJ

  21. Thanks Tim! I”m finishing up reading a book even as I write this, and will be starting yours and Roger’s next. I must say, you guys have created quite a book, and while I’m not at all certain you’ll be bringing me into the camp of believing Ted did the Columbus murders, I really appreciate the work you guys have put into it (as I know the literary blood and sweat it takes). And believe me, I was as happy as all get out (as they say here in the South) to receive my copy in the mail! It really looks interesting, the photos look great, and I can’t wait to hit page 1.

    Thanks again, Tim (and Roger!).

    Take care,

    Kevin

  22. Dear Kevin,

    I just finished your book. You should be very proud of your work. It was well written and had me on the edge of my seat even though I know the story too well. I was very impressed with your detail in regard to the pre glenwood springs murders. Very interested in your take on the Smith and Aimee cases. Found something interesting in the Viewmont section. Obviously Roger and I believe you left out 420 pages of the story. Thanks for contributing such a well investigated look. Good Luck, Tim Wilson

  23. That’s true. As I mentioned above, he abducted Healy in the U-District, a neighborhood teeming with college students; students who were, for the most part, very nocturnal. The likelihood of his being seen was actually very great. I’m surprised he attempted this one, and even more surprised he succeeded.

  24. I remember seeing that cheesie Bundy movie from 2002. It depicted him carrying Healy’s dead body,wrapped in a sheet, down the side walk. If you didn’t realize that that movie was based on a true story you would have thought it was an attempt at black humor. It looked ridiculous. My husband thought it was a gag as that movie had a tendency to be a little satirical. I had to tell him, that no that was based on what actually happened.

  25. I did not intend to hit submit, so here’s the rest:

    I believe the 2 or 3 dead air calls came in on the evening of Feb. 1st. Also, Bundy and Linda had another connection: Each visited the same Safeway store on a regular basis, and I believe Bundy cashed a check there the day of the abduction (it’s been a long time since I read that material).

    Anyway, Bundy is a unique serial killer, and I personally believe he’ll be remembered for how brazen and “shocking” his abductions and murders actually were. Very strange stuff, indeed.

  26. JRJ–

    I can’t prove this, but I think Bundy entered a completely different phase (or realm of thinking) heretofore unknown to him when he abducted Lynda Healy. In my opinion, no matter what Bundy did (or what folks suspect he did) prior to Jan. ’74, the Healy abduction is vastly different, and was exceedingly risky to attempt in the first place. To me, it speaks more of a diabolical launch into a lifestyle, rather than a sophistication gained by repeated excursions into homes. It is a case so strange, I don’t expect to encounter another like it anywhere.

  27. Kevin,
    I too am fascinated by the Healy crime and of two minds on it. On the one hand this crime speaks of a brazen experienced murderer who has killed in a home invasion before. OTOH why would Bundy even try to enter a house with a number of other young healthy adults inside (forgetting his crazed Chi Omega episode during disorganized phase before final capture)? How the hell did he pull off the murder abduction of Healy w/o waking anyone up? Unfriggenbelievable! The “EXPERTICE” with which he pulled this off suggests MUCH experience in this type of murder. OTOH, there does not seem be a record of similar unsolved crimes that he might be linked too and even Bundy must have realized the folly of this MO, because he never tried it again during his “prime” 74-75 phase.
    He made a number of important mistakes in his Jan 1974 attacks.

    1) 6 Jan 74 Bundy left the evidence –namely Joni Lenz’s ‘body’ in her own home.
    2) Bundy failed to kill Joni Lenz -a potential witness.
    3) In choosing a victim that could be linked to him. He and Healy were in the same class in college (though perhaps not in the same class section) and Bundy’s cousin was good friends with her. Bundy’s MO became more sophisiticated as he later “progressed” to “Stranger” killings.
    4) 31 Jan 74 Bundy abducted Healy out of her own home –a home populated with a number of other young people –one sleeping in the next room over which was seperated only by a plywood wall. While ‘gutsy’ and almost incomprehensible, he would not later make such risky attacks until his Florida frenzy in which he vented pent up rage following his escape from prison in Colorado. He also left evidence in Healy’s home i.e. probable hair samples eventually pulled from her rug.
    5) 4 Feb 74 Bundy (if it was him who made these calls) seems to taunt the Heally residence with three “dead air” calls and police with a phone call indicating that man who attacked Lenz & Healy were the same. If Bundy placed these calls, it drew uneccesary attention to himself and connecting crimes.
    6) Bundy’s initial 1974 victims were from his neighborhood, but he then sprialed outward as he sought to avoid drawing suspicion to himself until he grew overconfident and returned to his neighborhood with the Hawkins murder.

    One of several of his mind boggling crimes in my opinion (Burr?, Heally, Parks, Hawkins, SAMAMISH, Kent, Campbell, two remarkable escapes from custody while under trial for murder, CHI OMEGA, and Leach).
    Your thoughts?
    JRJ

  28. Hi Steve–

    Yes, Bundy said he dumped her body near Fairview, and police later found a human kneecap in that area. However, I don’t believe they ever determined conclusively if it was from Debby, but I’m sure it was.

    FYI: I did my Utah research in August 2006, and our motel was just off I-15 in Bountiful. The folks we met there (and this would include all of Utah) were extremely nice to us, and very helpful, and I quickly fell in love with the beautiful Wasatch mountain range, too! It’s a great place to live, and I’m planning on a return visit (if possible!) one day.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  29. I just found this site. I live in Bountiful. I feel so bad about the Debby Kent murder. Is there any chance her body will ever be found? Does the family, or the police, or anyone have any idea where she is? Did Bundy ever tell anyone?

  30. Carrie–

    Thanks for the kind words concerning the book! I received my information from Mike Fisher (the Colorado investigator) and he may have the tape, or a transcript of the tape. Also, the prison may have a copy of the tape, but if so, I’m not sure if it would be available to the public. However, the State Archives of Florida houses a vast collection of the Bundy material pertaining to his crimes in that state, so you might try searching their website.

    The second victim on the tape (I believe) is Susan Curtis. Bundy confessed to her murder right at the end, and I believe this confession was taped.

    I have enjoyed answering questions (to the best of my ability, that is) for many months now, and I’ll continue to do so for as long as folks keep asking them, LOL!

    Take care,

    Kevin

  31. Kevin-

    I just finished your book and it was very good. There was a lot of new information.

    I was wondering about the tape that Ted did the night before the execution where is admitted to killing Denise Olverson. Bundy told his guards that the tape was for the investigator from Colorado. Did the authorities save that tape or transpose it onto digital? Did you get to hear it? What was the second murder he confessed to?

    Thanks for taking the time to take all of our questions. It’s a real treat to be able to speak to the author. In fact, I ran across this web site by accident and it was this forum that inspired me to purchase the book.

  32. Hi Carrie–

    First, my above comments were written at 2:45 am, and I was exceedingly tired. As such, my comments were rather brief, and I did not have an opportunity to expound upon the relationship of THOUGHTS which produce EMOTIONS which in turn produce ACTIONS. And I am talking about what I consider to be normal folks, and not the likes of Bundy, or any other diabolical person who has, or who is currently walking the earth. These monsters are so far removed from the rest of society, that the only thing that will cure them is a firing squad (LOL!) or some other form of execution. They are absolutely beyond repair, in my view.

    Now, I do not have the space to write an in-depth treaty, if you will, concerning society-at-large, and how they can better their lives in the realm of the mind and emotions, but there are ways they can do so. And believe it or not, the writers of the New Testament had quite a bit to say about the operational function of the human mind in conjunction with the spirit (if one is inclined to believe in an eternal spirit, which I do). So yes, there are things people can do, but the “doing” aspect of this can be difficult for folks to grasp without the proper teaching. And yes, even for “normal” people, the mind is where many a battle is either lost or won.

    A footnote to some of this mind stuff: My brother (now deceased) blew his mind in the late 1960’s on drugs. After this, he passed into a state of being from which he never returned. He was, for a lack of better words, beyond all help.
    Anyway, that’s all I have time for at the moment, but believe me, your comments were very good, and I did understand your meaning.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  33. Hi Gray–

    As I said in a previous post (hundreds of questions ago) pornography will cause one to want to have sex. But it will not cause one to want to slaughter women and cut off their heads! It just doesn’t work that way. I am not saying pornography is healthy, because, in my view, its not. It can be addictive, and it can cause problems between couples, and in some cases (as I have personally seen) will cause a split in the relationship. As a retired minister, believe me, I’ve seen it all. So Bundy was “snowing” Dobson, and its a shame the good doctor couldn’t see through the monster that was sitting before him. I remember shaking my head at the interview the first time I saw it, and it is so without any meaning or value, I wouldn’t even include it in my book.

    And thank God Cleckley made the decision to write what I consider to be the defining work on the sociopath!

    See ya,

    Kevin

  34. Kevin-

    I never meant to suggest that I believed that it was possible to “think away” antisocial urges. Trust me, I have the academic background to appreciate better than the average person just how impossible this would be.

    My interest is whether or not there is a side to such people who wish they weren’t the way they were but feel trapped by their illness. I realize that this is a difficult concept for many people to entertain because they think it may promote sympathies for the aflicted. I, on the other hand, am not pondering these questions through a political paradigm but more from a scientic one. For some reason our culture has difficulty studying mental illness objectively because we are so appaled by the person’s illness and the behaviors that result from it.

    That said, I think we can expand our collective knowledge of psychopathology if we were more willing to “think outside of the box”. None of this is to suggest that I think that you are acting in such a way. I am just kind of wondering aloud.

    I actually appreciate you’re taking on this project as it is nice to have a fresh and updated perspective on this complex case.

  35. With regard to the interchange above about “deep questions” an interesting line from the televised interview with Dobson was Dobson saying about the act of murder, plaintively, “where were you, Ted?” as if the “Ted” he was addressing was a “normal,” or as Bundy once said “nominally normal” individual who had a “problem” that wasn’t the real Ted. Therefore they could both serve their respective agendas, blaming something else (pornography) rather than getting down to the unfortunate reailty.I think the title of H.Cleckley’s book, the Mask of Sanity, says it pretty well.

  36. These are deep questions, indeed!

    When a person is a psychopathic and sadistic serial murderer, then merely thinking good thoughts will do very little to help them; for after a few minutes of thinking said thoughts, if they see a pretty girl walk by, their REAL desires and motivations will kick in, and all they will want to do is (as in Bundy’s case) knock her in the head, and strangle her while having sex with her from behind. He then may want to remove her head for a later sexual encounter at his apartment. These folks do not have the same internal mechanisms within them as you, or most of the folks you’ll ever meet. And no amount of right thinking can ever really help, or “cure” these people.

    In the years prior to his 1974 ‘launch” into murder, Bundy may have had fleeting moments where the normal things in life appealed to him, however momentarily. But his real drive was sexually attacking and exterminating women. So rather than fighting his internal demons, he (and others like him) gladly embraced them. As such, I think the years between 1969 and 1974, Bundy was only concerned about concealing his true self from the rest of the world.

  37. I found your analysis about Bundy’s mask of sanity to be very interesting. I have often wondered in the past if Bundy’s period of seeming sanity was actually an attempt on his part to act normal in an effort to actually become normal.

    I am a mental health counselor. There is a prominent theory in psychology that if people can discipline themselves to only allow positive thoughts in their head, that that will lead to positive feelings and by extention positive behaviors. Likewise, disciplining ones self to only engage in positive behaviors will eventually change one’s internal experiences. Eventually the individual won’t have to force themselves to behave positively. It will become “natural”.

    During those years between 1969-1974 I have always been captivated by how “normal” Bundy looked to an outside observor. In other words, could he have been fighting his inner demons instead of concealing them?

  38. Hi Carrie–

    Well, when I first started my research, I thought about contacting Liz, but almost immediately decided against it. The reason for the change of mind had to do with two factors: First, I had her book, and that is the best source of information available concerning their relationship. And secondly, I didn’t want to cause her additional pain by having to reopen old wounds so that I could get a really nice blurb or two.

    I never attempted to contact carol Boone; never thought about it, really. It just wasn’t necessary, in my view.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  39. Hi Kevin,
    I am almost finished with your book and have enjoyed it very much.

    I was wondering if, during your research, you had an opportunity to contact Liz or Carole Boone? Without giving away information that would compromise their anonymity, I have long wondered what became of these women in their post-Bundy life.

  41. Ordered and finally got your book here in Australia Kevin!! Can’t wait to delve into it 🙂

  42. No argument here, KYGB, as you may be correct, LOL!

    Actually (and I believe I mentioned this above) I think it’s highly likely Bundy did kill Davis and perry. However, it must have been a highly disorganized set of murders indeed. And of course, I mention how unprepared Bundy was to commit murder (according to his own words) during this period in his life, which would explain the stark differences between the “refined” killer of 1974, and the person who killed these girls in NJ. But again, two things we must remember: First, he may not have killed them after all, and second, even if he did, I categorically do not believe that was his official launch into murder, though I do believe, based on a slip he made with Keppel, that he killed at least one woman in 1973.

    If you look at Jan. 1974 as a metaphorical door, one might say, then when Ted opened it and stepped through to the other side, it was a special line of demarcation which set him apart from his life which came before. As I say in my book, he was saying goodbye to one (his old) life, and entering another. Once he crossed over to the other side, he never returned. It was indeed the start of something new. As such, I’m not so sure he did a lot of killing prior to this time; otherwise, this life of unabated murder might have come to the surface much earlier. So yes, he may have killed Ann Marie Burr at the age of 14; and yes, he MAY be responsible for the 1969 murders of the two girls; and yes, he may have killed in 1973, but Jan. 1974 and beyond was something else altogether. But at the risk of sounding redundant, let me repeat, he may not be responsible for the ’69 murders, and maybe (or, maybe not) he killed Burr as a kid, and did not take a life again till 1973. Who knows? All we can say with certainty, is that Bundy began killing coeds in Jan. 1974, and anything beyond this is guessing and speculation. And just about everyone at this site, who has kept up with us over these many months, knows how I feel about speculation.

    take care, daddy-o!

  43. Couple additions to my post above. The date for that Friday was May 30th. I don’t know if they celebrated Memorial Day on Monday in ’69, but that Monday was June 2 and the day they found the bodies of Davis and Perry.

    Dr Norman’s interview with Bundy in which he revealed hints of his involvement in the murders was October 31, 1986 on death row at FSP.

    Kevin, I think Bundy did kill the two girls in NJ. I didn’t ask the question, but were there other murders that Ted could have done between NJ and Healy in ’74? I think Ted used his experiences in NJ to build his killing career. He basically blundered into Davis and Perry. He knew he loved to rape and do violent murder and began to hone his stalking and slaughtering skills after ’69. Ted had to build his MO and make his little murder kit.

    I really feel the lack of blunt force trauma in the Ocean City killings actually point to Ted. Ted learned what a valuable tool a “hammer” of some sort was and he added that object to his murdering repetoire.

    Kevin doesn’t think Lake Sam was based on anything Ted had done in the past? Well, Kevin guess is probably better than mine, but I mildly disagree on that. Ted killed two in NJ, I feel. He did it again in Lake sam, and went back one more time in the Sorority house in FL.

    I haven’t had a decent argument with Kevin in this whole thread, I might as well start here. (little sarcasm there, big boy, don’t get excited)

  44. Great blurb, KYGB; a blurb filled with much info…

    Two things we must remember:

    First, the Healy abduction stands alone as the most bizarre and unique abduction, not just committed by Ted Bundy, but of any abduction I have knowledge of. The sophistication of the Healy murder would not, in my view, have been gained by Bundy during the murders of the two girls in ’69. If he did kill these girls, then he would have at least 2 murders under his belt, so to speak, but the detail and planning of his first murder of 1974, came from the endlessly violent fantasy life Bundy was so faithful in cultivating prior to his “official” launch into murder.

    Second: Personally, I would highly doubt that Ted would have attempted Lake Sam based on anything he’d done in the past.
    As I say in my book, I believe Lake Sam was a homicidal boast by Bundy, of what he could do, when he wanted to do it, based upon his ability to confound authorities at every turn by committing murder and not leaving any evidence behind. I also believe it had to do with Bundy’s increasing desire to kill more, and to do more; to ratchet up, if you will, the diabolical aspect of what he was doing. And what he was doing was causing one woman to watch another woman die, resulting, of course, in a nightmarish terror in the one who witnessed it and was about to be killed. This was a fuel for Bundy, and something he very much enjoyed. And even if he did murder Davis and Perry, it couldn’t have compared with what Bundy “accomplished” at Lake Sam. Lake Sam also stands alone as a very bizarre abduction, unlike, in my view, than anything we have seen before. And while we’re on the subject, the Debby Kent abduction also stands alone in a bizarre category all by itself. The unexpected became a hallmark of what Ted Bundy became.

  45. Jason, Here’s more on the Ocean City NJ murders…

    Elizabeth Davis and Susan Perry were found three days after they were murdered. The girls were presumed murdered the night of Friday, May 28, 1969. The two 19-year-olds had gone missing Friday, when they failed to return to Pennsylvania after a vacation down the Jersey Shore. Davis and Perry had spent a few days in Ocean City, NJ before the holiday weekend, staying at a rooming house on Ninth Street. They walked the boards, went to the beach, and after dark they hit the Somers Point nightclubs, just as thousands of other young people were doing.

    They left early Friday morning, ate breakfast at the Point Diner, and then disappeared down the Garden State Parkway north, heading home. Then in a scene of horror, they would drive onto the Parkway, never to be seen alive again, except by their killer.

    By Monday, when it was realized that an abandoned convertible towed off the parkway Friday morning was the car belonging to the missing girls, the bodies had been found in the secluded underbrush off the road. Authorities said one of the bodies was naked and the other clad in torn and frayed clothing. Both were covered with welts and bruises, and there was “some evidence of sexual assault,” police said. Leaves had been kicked over the bodies. Sgt. Joseph Kobus of state police said that, pending an autopsy, they were presumed to have been stabbed.
    The fatal wounds were unusual. The murder weapon could have been a pen or a nail file as the wounds were tiny in their size.

    Ted’s subsequent admissions to Dr Norman are but one bit of evidence that points to Ted Bundy. Many observers of the Bundy murders have felt that Ted’s murder of Lynn Healy points up the fact that Ted was a pretty sophisticated killer by the time of the Healy slaying. It would seem that Ted had other victims prior to the Healy murder.

    The other thing that leads one to believe that Ted was the killer in the Davis-Perry murder is Ted’s killing at Lake Sammamish. It has always seemed strange that Bundy would go off the wall and pursue two victims at lake Sam. I can’t help but wonder if TRB was trying to re-live an earlier, more crudely attempted slaying, on the Jersey shore. We also seen Ted running around with his sophisticated murder kit. Did he learn he needed all that stuff after he attempted to kill to kill two girls with pens or nail files?

    In an irony of ironies, Raymond Perry moved his wife and family to the PNW after the loss of daughter Elizabeth. The Perry’s lived in the Seattle area and were present there when “Ted the Cruiser” was killing poor girls in Washington. Many people following the case believe that investigator’s communicated to the Perry and Davis family that Bundy was deemed the killer, but there was very little to convict him in the case. The victims’ families felt that after Bundy’s execution that they believed he was the killer. A hint of this was found in statements made by Elizabeth Perry’s mom after Ted was executed. In 1993 Margaret Perry, Elizabeth’s mother, sounded relieved: “We are convinced that when Ted Bundy died, our daughter’s killer got his comeuppance.”

  46. Jason–

    Dr. Al Carlisle first told me about Dr. Norman, and he suggested I seek him out. However, I was unable to locate him, but through my efforts, I stumbled upon an article which stated all I really needed to know anyway: That is, Bundy did at least admit murdering two women when he back east. Now, there is no way to prove these murders occurred, and we have to take Bundy’s word for this. Still, I’m inclined to believe he’s telling the truth.

  47. Thanks KYGB and Kevin for the info Bundy gave to Dr Art Norman. Where did you find this information? Is it from newspaper articles? Are these interviews avaliable in full??

  48. Courtney–

    I believe that would be 1969 that Dr. Norman would be referring to, but I don’t think Bundy gave him an exact date of these supposed killings. Too bad we don’t have more information about this.

  50. JRJ–

    I can retrieve these, of course, for all who might be interested, and will do so as soon as I can. I will post the info at this site, but don’t look for it right away, as my Bundy file is massive, filling two fairly large filing cabinets, and it will require some time before I can locate them. I can tell you that one involves a woman who disappeared from a university library in CA just before closing and her remains were never found. This is one he in not suspected of committing, but because of the circumstances, I believe Bundy may be responsible for her murder.

    Anyway, I’ll locate these as soon as I can.

    P.S. You’re very much correct about the loss of such information after, say, when the writer is pushing up daisy’s, (LOL!). This being the case, I plan to offer the research material to the repository of a university or an historical society, so that others may continue to “glean” as time goes on. Indeed, as I have mentioned at this very site, I pity the researcher who travels to Utah in the years ahead, as much of that material has been lost forever; either having been destroyed by the court system, or more likely, having gone to the basements in the homes of all the detectives, now retired (and in some cases dead) and only God knows where it will end up as these folks drift away. Believe me, the material provided to me by Jerry Thompson exists nowhere else, and besides my copies, once he’s gone, his family may or may not hold onto it. Washing State, on the other hand, has done an excellent job of saving, housing, and preserving everything pertaining to the case; and this includes tiny portions of the Utah material. So that’s good!

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