1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer

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It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.

Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.

Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?

The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.


Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)

Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.

ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?

I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.

From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.

Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.

The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?

The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.

But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.

Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?

Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.

You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?

They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.

I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?

They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.

Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way

How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?

Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.

However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.

Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.

* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.

Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:

On this day..

Possibly related executions:

8,544 thoughts on “1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer”

  1. The person! Oh, and she isn’t calling herself by the same name but something totally different, but she’s still playing the same tune.

  2. Te person who was repetitiously posting on this site is now on Ann’s and her first statement was how nasty we all are! There won’t be any more though, as Ann won’t stand for that sort of thing.

  3. hi Richard–

    Well, according to the record, Bundy escaped from jail by jumping out the window on June 7, 1977. He wandered around in the wilderness for (what was it?) 5 days. had he made it to Pocatello, he would have kept going. Actually, he would have gone in the opposite direction, I believe, as he did after his second escape. Therefore, what that person believed (in my opinion) could not have happened.

    See ya

  6. “Her mother had an encounter with Bundy near Pocatello, Idaho….It seems that the encounter took place on 6/8/77”

    OK, this didn’t happen.

  7. Yes, Ed Kemper is a strange one indeed! And yes, I will be writing other books on killers (serial and otherwise), but first I’m doing a book on mass murder in the United States. I can’t say much more about it just yet, but as the story unfolds, I’ll pass off more info at this site.

    The Bundy book wasn’t exhausting at all. When you’re writing a book (at least this is the way it is for me) you’re kinda in a zone. And being in that zone, you get really focused. For the Bundy book, it was diving into the Washington State murders, then Utah and Colorado, and then Florida. And oh yes, his earlier years too. To complete each section felt really good. But of course, there is plenty of rewriting, adding material, and so forth. But writing the book was very enjoyable, actually. Lots of work to do, but a good time doing it.

  8. I I loved that part most about your book how it showed the slow and gradual disintegration of the mask. As I see it the monster was always there your book showed that but what other books did not was the slow and gradual release of the monster till he was bare, and there was no going back.

    Yes the review on Amazon was most favourable, I just checked and it is not there yet it seems Amazon UK like to preview reviews before they allow them public (shame they didnt do that state side lol) As it is I just got for xmas a book about serial killers and their youth. I have a few by Christopher Berry Dee and most notable “talking with serial killers” which I did not enjoy it was very thin on material considering he claimed to have spent so many hours around these guys the stories are none the less fascinating.

    One that fascinates me today is Ed Kemper, a bit like Dhamer he has refused interviews and to all means shut himself off from the world at large, but his story is interesting and like Bundy to an extent he appears to understand his “illness” and has said he wants to die in prison.

    Tell me Kevin have you any interest in writing about any other killers or was Bundy exhausting enough lol

  10. Thanks, Laura, for the kind words. As an astute reader, you easily ‘caught’ what I was trying to do. I very much tried to show the gradual disintegration of Ted Bundy, and I made sure to make reference to it as the years rolled on. The gloves incident is a perfect example of this: When I read this in the police reports, and it was clear Bundy didn’t respond, it was easy for me to see and understand what was happening to him. That is, he was already in (as I say in the book) an altered state of mind; a current of energy, if you will. Being caught up in this, he just didn’t feel the need to explain himself. This is not an unusual state of mind for murderers; especially those in a process of doing something diabolical. This is why they often have blank faces during portions of their acts, as seen in Bundy’s pushing Liz into the river, and so forth.

    You’re correct: Bundy was not insane in the legal sense of the word, but he is insane nevertheless. No one can do the things he did and have normal brain function. But no, he’s not insane as far as the courts are concerned.

    And yes, it was getting very difficult for Bundy to control the monster within, and I wanted to portray that, step by step. And I think most readers will agree that I did so; or at least I hope they do, LOL!

    Anyway, I haven’t read your review yet, but I gather it’s a favorable one. As such, why not post it at Amazon.com in the United States? Anyway, thanks for the nice words, Laura. I really do appreciate them.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  11. Hi Kevin

    I just did a review myself on http://www.amazon.co.uk if you search for your book it should be there. Hope you like what I said I just said as I found the book. For me it was thoroughly enjoyable I loved how you almost feel as if you are there watching him go from organised to disorganised.

    One part that was interesting to me was when Liz caught him with the gloves in his pocket and you said how he never even made an excuse his state of mind being such that he was so manic he couldnt. Scary.

    I often wonder what was he like mid ChiO if you caught him mid rampage what was his frame of mind was he in another wolrd all together a man not in control but something else taken over, if somebody had caught and accosted him what would he be like, it’s hard to imagine the monster within. Was it madness, was he “right” when he was comitting these acts but just driven by a compulsion or do you think he was in some way insane? I guess insane doesnt mean unaware of wrongfulness of what you do but do you think he had some kind of mental illness? Is it possible to do what he did and still be sane but perhaps a psychopath. I find that aspect interesting. Your book made me look at things in a different way and actually I do think he was insane. I know the legal definition of insane is somebody who isnt aware of their actions but I do think you can be insane and still in control of yourself – at times.

  12. Oh, George, I didn’t mind your sparring with the individual, and I personally didn’t mind (see, I used the correct word, he,he!) the words you said. But we clearly have someone (who wrote the Amazon review, tongue-in-cheek) who has recently escaped from the madhouse, and may have a diploma only from the 4th grade. Anyway, thank you for coming to my aid against the dribble which was deposited at this site. Let us hope that only civil tongues come knocking from now on, as I am more than ready to begin again an honest and intelligent discussion of the case.

  13. I thought I was going mad there as I went on Amazon and there are currently no reviews but I use the UK version. I just found the review (www.amazon.com), having just finished your book I can say I wholeheartedly disagree with everything that has been said. If it is indeed somebody from here who is a little disgruntled best to ignore, it’s a little sad to say the least. I thoroughly enjoyed the book, I have a few questions that I will come back to later I just stopped by to say I hope you all had a lovely Xmas and have a great Hogmanay.

  14. Kevin
    I happened open your reviews on amazon.com Must tell you -you had one negative review-BUZZY IS A SCREAM!Mind her not.I had to look at mind own copy of your book,just to make sure I was not insane.
    By the way-one of your 5 star reviewers also reviews a cd by claudine longet ,who preceded Ted before Judge Lohr.Delicious irony,no?
    At least in mind opinion

    /

  15. Kevin-
    One of the reasons why I have frequented this site,among many,is the casual and respectful manner in which we have all been able to discuss these subjects that we have ,indiviually, studied,in an atmosphere of mutual respect and consideration.I apologize if my comments unhinged her somewhat,I only sought to defend myself,you,though,your up to the job yourself,and more importantly the rest of the people that regularly post on this site. Why not continue the conversation?Why let one unhappy person ruin it for everyone?

  16. Well, I just wanted to let everyone know that, a few hours ago, someone posted a rambling and incoherent review of my book on Amazon.com. It was most interesting to see, as the style of writing is similar to what I’ve seen before; especially this person’s particular use of the word “mind” when they should have used the word “mine”. This person was even unable to get the title of the book written correctly. Anyway, I just thought that maybe those who have been in the habit of stopping by ET on a regular basis, would be able to read between the lines and figure out what I’m really saying, and about whom. Plus, you might want to stop by Amazon and check out the beauty of the language for yourselves.

  17. Laurie’s asked to have her previous comments removed, and with some misgivings about it, I’ve done so in the interest of letting her (and everyone else) move on. The comment stubs are still there to maintain the ordering, and to make it clear that her respondents weren’t just talking to air.

    Anyway. New year, clean slate.

  18. Yes, Jason , keeping the conversation up in 2010 sounds good to me too. Merry Christmas (of a few days ago, lol!)

  19. Merry Christmas everyone (belated lol) and a I wish everyone a happy new year. Its been a pleasure talking to everyone on here. I believe you all to be nice people and I hope our conversations carry on into 2010!!

    Jason

  21. Happy Boxing /St Stephen’s Day to to my US friends and UK friends on this site! (I was ultra-busy yesterday, even with both daughters’ pentiful help!)

  25. Headsman–

    I’m sure you know this, but I have remained silent after I said I would.Laurie, too, said she would stop, but has not yet done so. As such, I will speak now with the hope of bringing this diatribe and out-right verbal assault against me by making peace (if possible) with her:

    Laurie, I have made it abundantly clear that you may have seen Bundy, but it couldn’t be the story you originally referred to, as that would have been ’74 or ’75. But maybe you did have an encounter with Ted in ’73. But, if I have my doubts, that is just my personal opinion, and I have a right to that, don’t I? However, there is no room for name calling here. Not only is it wrong to do so, but you lessen your credibility by doing it.
    So in the interest of peace, if I came off wrong or abrupt then you have my apology. We can disagree all we want, but lets keep it civil.

  26. This thread has existed for almost the whole of 2009 with Godwin-defying good humor among all concerned. May I suggest that this particular tangent has reached the more-heat-than-light stage and propose that all concerned have the grace to resist turning up the temperature by insisting upon the last word?

    I wish you all (posters and lurkers alike) a wonderful holidays. Thanks so much for spending some of your year at Executed Today, and thanks to the many who have contributed their perspectives in these comments.

  27. Laurie
    Dont worry.I shall not address you again.Perhaps i still nourish the vain hope that you will keep your promise and go away.Too bad you could not remain in that extraordinary dimension in which you sometimes reside surrounded by Ann Rule books,a flawed perception of the facts and your ever so clear crush on Ted Bundy.Blah.Henceforth,I consign thee to the internet depths.Blah Blah Blah.

  30. To all
    One would think that if you were going to babble so much,and in so doing waste everybody elses,time,you would at least know the material.So Laurie,for once and for all,the girl in the Ann Rule book does NOT REFER TO YOU.That girl was let go because she said she had a daughter at home.This is not to say you did not meet Ted Bundy.But you have been immature ,and quite frankly,lazy.Before you insult people that know what they are talking about,do yourself a favor and follow their example

  33. Barry-

    ted spent most of his life as an agnostic or atheist. There may have been something in him that believed God in fact existed, but this could have been fleeting. There are, I believe, certain things towards the end which caused Bundy to consider the possibilities, and he may have ended up believing in God. But I don’t think it birthed a true repentance in him.

    And thanks for the kinds words!

    Kevin

  34. Kris–

    I’m not so sure ted studied Christianity. I think Tanner talked to him about this, and may have asked him to accept Christ into his life; efforts Bundy would have acted like he enjoyed or appreciated, and that’s all. I personally do not believe Bundy had it in him to actually repent for his crimes, as he enjoyed them too much.

  35. Hi peck–

    yes, I think someone is a bit mad at me, lol! Also, I’m in Louisville, KY, so if you’re coming through town, let me know a few days ahead of time, and contact the headsman at this site, asking him to pass your email address along to me. Then I’ll contact you and give you my cell number, etc.

    Take care,

    kevin

  36. Hi Laurie

    No disrespect, but Kevin was only trying to help by putting the facts he knows with your statements. After all Kevin is the one on here that probably knows bundy better than any of us. But i get ur point like who knows what ted was doing round 1973 so he prob was going round collecting hitchhikers n stuff including urself, as no one can tell where he is.

    Well laurie what did u think when u seen ted bundys face on tv or the paper when he got arrested like? did u go like oh my god that was the guy that picked me up. were u shocked or wat.

    Hi Kevin Again
    Do many serial killers believe in god do ya think? did bundy ever say he belived in him. i guess they dont think about god when their killing but when the end comes and there all locked up with nowhere else to go, i guess they start to get scared and decide to make amends.

    Thanks again Kev, u have helped a lot of people on here (including myself) with great insights and info. keep it up

  38. How long before his death did Ted study Christianity with Tanner? Did Ted decide to do this a week or 2 before the execution, or had he been doing this for a couple years prior?
    If he spent a lot of time with it, then he must have believed in it to a large degree, or rather hoped it was real, hoping it would save him from hell.

  40. I admire the way Laurie stands up for herself. It’s a frustrating position to be in – not being able to prove something like this. I once knew someone in a similar situation. Her mother had an encounter with Bundy near Pocatello, Idaho but was refuted when she reported it to the authorities. It seems that the encounter took place on 6/8/77 and the “official story” had Bundy kicking up his heels and catching up on his magazine reading in an Aspen, Colorado cabin at the time. However, what evidence there is supports her account and the “official story” is based solely upon statements by made Bundy that contradict his earlier statements.

  41. Kevin,

    I for one am very glad to have a copy of your book and am looking forward to future works. Your knowledge and research is second to none on this subject, and I appreciate your spending time here with all of us.

    I plan to make a trip to Florida sometime in January/February and hope to catch you around Tennessee for a signature.

    All I can say is WOW what a tangent.

  42. thanks, George, for the kind words. I do think I got on somebody’s bad side, didn’t I? LOL!

    Yes, the Cunningham murder is revealing indeed. Bundy very much enjoyed tormenting her, and his true nature was revealed at that moment. I appreciate Mike Fisher trusting me enough to pass on such information, for as I heard it, I knew this was a “first”, as I was being given new and previously unpublished facts about her abduction and death. And in the interest of “saving” such information for posterity (as these former investigators won’t be around forever) I was very happy to get it into print.

    I haven’t read that portion of the Brady book yet, but I’ll try to get that read in the next day or two. I started on the book a long time ago, but I got side tracked, as they say. I’m just very busy now with the new research, and the Brady book is not the only book I need to finish reading, LOL!

    Again, George, thanks for the uplifting words.

  43. Kevin-
    I would like to reiterate how gracious and accomadating you have been throughout these many months of discussion.It has been a rare treat indeed.But then you dont need me to defend you.I am curious ,however.It must be a sublime experience to be compared to Ted Bundy himself.I dont know about you,old buddy.
    Seriously,there is a need for decorum in conversation and one should always make sure they have their own facts straight before they call someone else a moron.
    But all this is off topic.I got the impression from the Cunningham murder that Ted admitted to taunting her before death by dangling the prospect of escape before her eyes.This certainly implies that there was alot more to Bundys routine then he deribes,say,in his third person accounts.In fact,it reveals that the killing itself bore satisfactions of their own,apart from the sexual possession of the corpse.Bundy had always denied taking pleasure in the act of murder itself.Clearly there was more to it than that.
    Incidently, have you read the chapter on Bundy in the Ian Brady book?I found it very interesting-a unique perspective you might say.Well,talk some more later on.Thanks for your time.

  45. Kris–

    I told Bill he should write a book, and he said he’s had several publishers approach him about doing it. But so far, he just doesn’t want to do one. Maybe he’ll change his mind.

    Ted had a guy named tanner talk to him about Christianity, and I think Tanner felt like he did a lot of good for Ted. I haven’t spoken to tanner, but this is what I’ve heard. Now, Bundy wasn’t beyond salvation, according to the Christian perspective. If he truly repented for his sins, came to Christ for personal salvation, then according to the scriptures, he could be saved. The problem is, of course, is Ted loved slaughtering women above all things. Bundy loved murder like most people love spending time with their family. So true repentence from Ted may not have been possible.

    So, if I were a betting man, and I had to guess where Ted is currently residing; well, I’d have to say it’s extremely warm there.

  46. Laurie–

    With all due respect, I’ve grown weary talking about this. So these statements are my final remarks on the matter:

    First, those closest to Bundy were the last to figure out he was the diabolical son of a bitch that he was. Do you understand this?

    Second, your original statement of the hitchhiker he let go is found in the Michaud -Aynesworth books, and this incident did not happen in 1973.

    So you’re quite wrong on these two points, and your striking out in my books.

    Now, Ted may have picked you up, but I have a right to believe he didn’t.

    No more words about this, please.

    peace!

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