1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer

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It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.

Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.

Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?

The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.


Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)

Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.

ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?

I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.

From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.

Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.

The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?

The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.

But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.

Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?

Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.

You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?

They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.

I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?

They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.

Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way

How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?

Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.

However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.

Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.

* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.

Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:

On this day..

Possibly related executions:

8,544 thoughts on “1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer”

  3. http://gallery.skcentral.com/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=1

    As I’ve posted before knew I had seen this photo, but I couldn’t find it. Put on my Captain Ahab hat and ran it down. It was in that SKC picture gallery. I hope the Headsman doesn’t think I’m spamming for that site, but they have some Bundy pix in that thing, I’ll tell ya.

    This picture shows a lot. There’s the whole “happy family”. Baby Rosa (Ted’s bio daughter), Carole Boone, son Jamey Boone, and TRB. Ted looks so pleased with himself, you just wanna slap him.

    It’s my sincere hope that Carole, Jamey and Rosa came out of this whole ordeal OK. Carole made a serious lapse in judgement, but came to her senses. These two kids don’t deserve any trouble over this crazy situation in which they found themselves .

  4. Yeah Barry. Mike made several errors. I’m sure this interview was 100% off the cuff. Both guys were in their shorts, drinkin’ beer. (Not that there is anything wrong with that). Mike was relaxed and not in “interview mode” at all.

    Mike slipped once that Bundy was tried 1995 and executed in 1998. He just made a slip of the tongue on that. I really liked the insight into Ted’s character. “He wasn’t as smart as he thought he was” a very telling comment.

    One of the things he was talking about there was Ted trying to be his own counsel at his murder trial. Ted was a fairly sharp guy, but he had no business playing trial lawyer. He needed to stay in the background and let his attorney’s do their job.

    Of course, his ego gets in the way of all logic.

  5. Hi All

    Thanks lucas for those links, was watching the interview with mike fisher, yeah that interviewer was a dumbass alright did even know how bundy was executed.

    Anyway during that interview mike mentions that bundy killed a girl that was 9 years old in florida? now im presuming he meant kimberely leach, damn mike fisher ur old age is catching up on ur memory lol

  7. KYGB–

    I’m only now checking out the Bundy movie, as I only had time earlier to watch and comment on the Mike Fisher interview. I’ll will watch the clips Lucas sent us now.

    See you in Red Square, LOL!

  8. You are trying to enroll me in the KGB or something, Kevin.

    Got some information on that movie Lucas gave us the URL for:

    Writer:
    Jeff Meyers (writer)
    Cast
    (Credited cast)
    Eric Mayer -Ted Bundy

    2002 straight to video movie shot at Northwest Actor’s Studio in Seattle, Washington (They did it in Ted’s old stomping grounds, eh?)
    More info on it at the following URL:

    http://www.culturevulture.net/Theater/MassMurder.htm

  10. Hey, KYBG–

    Per your comment about the interviewer, yes, there is no substitute for having one’s act together prior to the interview; and for 2 reasons:

    First, without “knowing” the subject matter of why one is there in the first place, how can one even ask the proper questions to obtain the very best info from the interview. The person has the answers, but the interviewer doesn’t have the questions.

    Secondly, knowing what your audio equipment can and cannot do, is very important, and such problems as we saw here are easy to avoid. It takes planning ahead of time.

    Still, we are better off having this interview than not having it. I just wish it would have been conducted a little differently.

  11. My thanks also, Lucas.

    That’s some good stuff.

    Any idea who the author of that play or who that actor was? Good job by both of ’em.

    The Mike Fisher interview was pretty good. It always shows you that an interview is a two way dance. The interviewer’s lack of knowlege of the subject matter greatly interfered with the flow of that one. I got the idea that the interview was impromptu. Moving away from some of the background noise would have helped, too.

  15. A note to those who have asked about my future work:

    I will not be writing the book on mass murder as I originally thought I would. I could not quite “hammer” it out with the publisher, so, while I will be staying within the true crime genre, I’m not certain exactly what my subject will be. I have some ideas, and I’ll be sure to let everyone know when I make a decision.

  16. Hi Topelius–

    As a sociopath, Bundy was capable of doing all kinds of violence to both men and women. However, I think a bit of the coward lived in Bundy when it came to confrontations with men. He became extremely nervous when Danny Parmenter confronted him in Jacksonville, FL, and I point this out in my book. Now, he fought the cop in Pensacola only to evade capture, but would he go out of his way to confront a male? In my opinion, no. He’d rather pick on women.

  17. Hi again!

    Not really relevant but I was wondering if Bundy ever commited violence against men? Bar fights etc.

    Take care folks.

  18. Richard is quite right here. Ted said he didn’t want to see “The Deliberate Stranger”, the TV version of Richard Larsen’s book. There are several interesting things about that made-for –TV movie debut.

    The movie was to be broadcast in two parts. The first half was to be shown on Sunday May 4th, 1986. The second half was on Monday night, May 5th. As so many things in this freaky case, Ted’s appeal would be announced by the Supreme Court on Monday May 5th. The whole thing was bonkers for the media. All NBC stations could announce that Ted Bundy had lost his appeal AND watch the second half of “Deliberate Stranger” that night!

    And that’s just the way it went. Ted lost his appeal and the drums starting beating for his execution. With all the media attention, I’m sure Ted “snuck a peek” at the movie. He was always proud of being the most famous serial killer, etc. But, reality was starting to seep into his life, and he was not happy about the way things rolled out.

    This brought extreme national attention and awareness that Bundy was still on death row. The clamor for his execution grew by leaps and bounds and would reach a fever pitch by late ’88 and early ’89 thanks in part to the media hoopla.

  19. Polly Nelson in her book said Bundy wasn’t planning on seeing the movie. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that he didn’t.

  20. Hi Barry–

    First, thanks for the kind words. I think I’ve enjoyed this as much or more than anyone else. And I plan to stick around for as long as it goes.

    You know, Bundy knew Richard Larsen quite well, and I’m sure he would have liked to see the film. Whether he did or not, I just can’t say, but it was a made-for-TV movie, so perhaps he did.

    I do think those on death row in most or all prisons across the country, are allowed television, so eventually they probably see most of those movies they want to see. Death row folks are in their cells 23 hours a day, so I’ll bet TV is big in their lives.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  21. Hu again folks

    Yeah congrats to this thread and kevin one year on and still questions need answered. Big thanks to kevin for takin his time to answer them and yes its the best bundy board on the net always something interesting arises hopefully keep it goin that way.

    Anyway kevin i was just after watching the deliberate stranger movie, it was a great movie mark harmon looked the part playing bundy.

    One thing i wanted to know do u know if bundy ever seen this movie? i mean he was still living at the time of its release 1986. but im guessin in death row those days you didnt get luxuries like watching movies lol wud be interesting to know wat bundy thought of that movie.

    On the same note are serial killers or murderers allowed to view movies in prison that are made about them? im guessin not but wud be interesting.

    thanks again

  22. Hi Topelius–

    I believe he maintains a home here in Louisville now, but for many years he lived elsewhere. The Muhammad Ali museum opened here in town several years ago, too.

    See ya,

    Kevin

  23. I remember the time this topic had 6 comments. As the time went on, this discussion evolved and became the most interesting Ted Bundy related discussion board on the internet. I`m thankful for everyone, and especially for the author himself.

    Off-topic: Kevin, does Muhammad Ali still live in Louisville, KY? Yup, a weird question, but I just saw a documentary about him and remembered that you`re both from Louisville 🙂

  24. Hey, Happy Birthday to the Bundy thread on Executed Today. One year ago this thread started off with the feature on Kevin’s upcoming book! The Bundy Murders has since been published. There has been a very lively discussion of the case and many interesting and informative posters have popped out of the woodwork to join in the fun.

    I’ve really enjoyed the dialogue and appreciated some enlightened posts on this case. Hope this thread continues, along with the excellent site, Executed Today.

    (Sorry about all the typos in my previous post, I must have been too lazy to do spellcheck)

  25. Could well be, Richard. I didn’t mean Bob K would profit from the sale. I was thinking it came from Kepple somehow. Obviously, once people have access to Pics now, they go in the digital picture banks on the net.

    I’ve seen another “family” photo from FSP. This one had Carole’s son Jamey and daughter Rosa in the picture. Same “one big happy family” theme. The source couold well be somebody connected to FSP, aalso.

  26. I don’t think Keppel would do that. I saw the pic being offered on eBay for a whole lot of thousands. Perhaps a reclusive person needed money.

  27. Vidor, yes the SK gallery is fascinating. That’s a classic “jailhouse Polaroid’. Usually CO’s (or maybe a trusty) take those and sell ’em to the inmates during visits.

    This is the url for that family photo.
    http://gallery.skcentral.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=67
    Carole is very reclusive about Ted and the case. I’d guess that Polaroid was in Ted’s property. Bob Kepple wound up with that stuff, maybe he was the source of the pic.

  28. Both Parmenter and the clerks at the Holiday Inn spoke of how dirty Bundy appeared.

    Yes, I’ve seen that picture of Bundy & family once before. I don’t know who took the shot, but look at the expression on his daughter’s face. What must that woman think today of her dad. Very sad.

  29. Cleanliness–yes, wasn’t it Leslie Parmenter who said that he looked dirty? Or the hotel clerks he encountered to and from Lake City? I read somewhere, can’t remember where, that when he got arrested he was wearing the same shirt he had on when he murdered Kimberly Leach.

    Looking through that SK gallery again. Some astonishing pictures. How the hell did they get a photo of Ted with Carole and the baby? Carole Boone has been out of the public eye for 24 years!

  30. Vidor–

    Yes, Bundy was in utter meltdown in Florida; a fact I trace in my book. If one compares his methodology of killing in Washington State with Florida, it doesn’t even look like the same person. Just to touch on a few changes while he was in Tallahassee: He was sometimes dirty in his appearance; he could not convince women to follow him to their deaths any longer; his lack of concern for leaving evidence behind was evident; he was making numerous and obvious mistakes while interacting with people (see the info in my book pertaining to the Holiday Inn in Lake City); his rampage through Chi Omega, just to name a few.

    Quite a study in disintegration, I would say.

  31. #1522, on why Bundy went to Florida–

    The Michaud and Aynesworth books basically spell this out. Ted wanted to go to a college town, because he liked college atmospheres (and presumably b/c there was lots of fresh prey). He first went to Ann Arbor, Michigan, but it was cold there and he didn’t have winter clothing. So he went to Tallahassee–and ironically enough it was unseasonably cold there during that time, although it wasn’t snowing like up in Michigan.

    #1524, on the balaclava (sp?)–

    Of course we know that Ted sometimes used ski masks when committing home invasions. Specifically, we know this from Chi Omega, when they found one pantyhose mask at the crime scene and another in Cheryl Thomas’ apartment. It’s also likely, from his third person confessions, that he broke into other homes that we don’t know about. Quite likely he was looking for a place to break into on 8-16-75.

    That leads me to think about how careless he was at the end, in Florida. If he’d kept that mask on as he left the Chi Omega house he’d never have been convicted of those murders. If he’d disposed of Kimberly Leach’s clothes like he’s always done in the past, he’d never have been convicted of her murder.

  32. A little tidbit about Ronald Holmes…

    Bob Keppel told me that, in his opinion, Holmes was probably the “golden boy” that Bundy planned to confess to, had they not had a falling out, that is. After this, that changed, and Keppel was the one who played a rather big part in those later confessions. of course, at the end, many detectives got some very real info that Bundy believed he’d never have to own up to.

    Now, it is of interest to note as well (as far as my book is concerned) that James Massie (the one who introduced me to Jerry Thompson) worked closely with Holmes during the Bundy period, and in fact, they are still friends today. Well, I ran into Holmes one day in either 2005 or 2006 in a store here in Louisville, and I stopped and introduced myself to him, and I asked him if he’d read my Bundy article which was published in Snitch. He had, and our subsequent conversation was a real ice-breaker, as Holmes is not a man that is easy to get close to for interviews, etc. So when it came time for me to interview him, I contacted Jim Massie, and he helped me to arrange a meeting, so it all worked out.

    Years ago, long before I met Thompson, or thought I’d write a book about Bundy, Massie showed me copies of the letters Bundy wrote to Holmes, and I’m sorry now that I didn’t make copies. Not that I would have included any of that info in my book (although it’s possible) but for reasons of posterity, it would have been nice. Jim also showed me numerous crime scene photos of Bundy’s victims which have never been released to the public, and probably never will. Outside of viewing these, of course, I would never have attempted to publish them. But in writing about any crime, it’s always good to be able to see what the investigators saw as they entered the crime scene.

    Anyway, I just thought everybody might enjoy seeing some of the background stuff that I encountered on my journey while writing The Bundy Murders.

  35. You beat me to it, Richard. The “Holmes” that I associate with the Bundy case is Ronald M Holmes. Robert Holmes was located in Louisville KY and was a source for Kevin’s book. KS cites Homles’ 1991 work, “Sex Crimes” in his bibliography for ‘The Bundy Murders’.

    Is this the guy you are referring to, Barry?

  37. There are various parts of Bundy’s interview with Preston Holmes in a number of books by Holmes and other authors. I think they were a step forward from the H&A and Keppell interviews in that they are quite revealing in looking at Bundy’s thoughts on himself and his murders.

  38. Thanks Jason for those quotes really interesting if u come upon more please post them.

    yeah that kimberely leach one was very disturbing, suprisinly i tink kimberely was the only victim wit her throat slit, not the usual bundy stranglings, but by that stage bundy was all ova da place and i guess his thirst got more sinister.

    Bundy: “Sitting there in a cell, I could convince myself that I was not guilty of anything”.

    very interesting to say the least

  40. Hi all

    I came across some statements made by Bundy to Preston Holmes which is contained in a number of his books. They were in the third person narrative but could easily apply to him. I ve just copied and pasted some of it as it is not contained in any of the known Bundy books

    Here are a few random quotes from the Bundy interviews:

    The selection of a victim?
    Bundy: ‘ you can tell a victim by the way she walked down the street, the tilt in her head, the manner in which she carried herself etc’.

    The murder of one of his victims (most probably Kim Leach_
    B: He (unknown killer) entered her vaginally from the rear, pulled her head back by the hair, and slit her throat. It was the most powerful orgasm this person had ever had’.

    Description of a serial killer
    B: ‘ Such a person it rational and knows what he is doing. He makes plans on a rational and intelligent basis; few serial killers are psychotic, see visions or hear voices’. He then describes how killing another human being creates a osychological ‘high’ for them so that they need to ‘kill’ again and again.

    When talking about why he killed:
    B: ‘There was something deep inside me, something I could not control’

    Random Quotes
    B: Sitting there in a cell, I could convince myself that I was not guilty of anything’.
    [regarding confession] ‘Walking right up to the edge is a thrill, but I can’t do it. I havent allowed myself to choke’

    Enjoy 🙂

  41. Liz K took that one. The pic is in “The Phantom Prince”, I believe. the Ted Bundy movie from ’02 was based on “The Phantom Prince”. They use the “heel click” pic to roll the final credits over.

    Yeah, that shot of Ted holding Liz’s daughter always gives me the Willy’s.

  42. Barry and all–

    I have seen the lady’s name listed as Bartholomew. As such, it’s probably the sister of a guy Bundy knew in Salt lake City, Utah.

  43. Yeah thats a great pic KYGB, it must of been at some party bundy attended seein as the blonde girl was a neighbour. she fit bundys type of victim but seein as ted knew her he wudnt hurt girls he knows so he says.

    in one of the comments it says that it was taken by bundys girlfriend, was it stephanie or liz? It certainly shows ted in good spirits. But his trousers (pants) in the photo make me lol haha way too far up ted haha

    this pic of ted and his daughter on his shoulder is one to remember.
    http://gallery.skcentral.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=67

  48. Hi, I seem to remember a picture of “Stephanie Brooks” in an older book about Bundy. But since, I haven’t been able to locate it, (it was some years ago, and I don’t remember the title) I know that in Ann Rule’s book there is a photo of Stephanie and Bundy together but her upper face is blocked out. Any idea what book might have had that photo? I just finished Phantom Prince and the author mentioned that she didn’t think Stephanie was as beautiful as she thought she might be. It was so long ago that I saw the first mentioned book, I can’t remember what she looked like. Just curious. Thanks.

  49. Yeah, I know Barry.

    I well know of the previous incident. & I’m the last guy on earth to want Kevin to get into, ah, a “contest’ with a troll.

    Was just trying to communicate that if you want some research on your deal done, do it. I tried to give some tools to that person so they could maybe run things down themselves, if they sincerely wanted the knowlege, there are ways to do a whole lot of footwork on their own.

    Meanwhile, this forum list is great & I don’t want to see it come to a halt because we are all on “radio silence”.

    Believe me, Kevin is a full grown man & he can handle any and all disingenuous trolls.

  50. KYGB be aware this is probably just another trolll coming along with these ted stories, we dont want another incident with the arguments kevin had with the other girl earlier. This could well be her again using a different name and story.

    So its best not to reply to them posts, unless PAH can prove without doubt the facts in the story shes talking about

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