Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Look, I am REALLY the last to put the victims in a bad light, but sometimes I think that maybe those two girl approached at Lake Sam and subsequently killed – may have detected – this “help me with my sailboat” is a kind of trick – to pick up them.
I don’t mean absolutely a sex – but just a flirt .
This kind a filirt game is clearly visible in Bundy movies – regardless of the fact – they are not source materials.
Maybe they were expecting to start a promising relationship with handsome, charming, intelligent, educated and definitely harmless looking “gentleman”?
Just to make them relaxed – to bring some entertainment into dull hot Sunday?
I know both of them were engaged into relationships (husband, boyfriend) – but I would say that people were people, as much so then as now.
The truth turned out to be a horror though.
What a brilliant thought, Denise!
I am 100 % serious.
I used to think about this Lake Sam events thousand times and I have never thought about it.
Well, I don’t sail – but stil it is not excuse for me to not use my head! 🙂
Hi Denise,
Well, there was just something about Ted: He was handsome, charming and intelligent, and women wanted to believe him. He was, however, a completely different person on the inside. What the women saw on the outside when he first spoke to them was nice and inviting. But if they could have perceived just a little of what was below the surface of all that, they would have started screaming as they ran away!
I hope you enjoy the book.
Kevin
Hi all, again…
While I’m waiting for Kevin’s book to arrive from Amazon (ohhh sooo sloooow – not due here until 17th June! – 6 weeks from ordering!) I’ve re-read the other Bundy books so I’m up-to-scratch again.
What strikes me again and again about the Lake Sammamish abductions, and no one ever seems to have mentioned it, is the illogic of a man with an arm in a sling asking women to leave the park and go to ‘his parents’ house in Issaquah’ and help him load a sailboat. So, how was he going to sail it with one arm supposedly out of action? (This sounds just like the illogic of murderess Diane Downs claiming she and her *sleeping* children were ‘sightseeing’ late at night.) None of the women Ted approached seems to have questioned this.
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Hallo Alaina,
I do appreciate you have the courage to go through this painful events again. It is not easy to go back to such memories.
If you decide to tell your story of out of this site – in a interview, article, brochure, whatever – just let us know so we can obtain it.
BTW – I don’t wanna pose as Bundy specialist – but I think they were many many more women bothered by Bundy and ultimately abandoned and luckily left unharmed – than killed by Bundy. Of course it all depends on how we define “encounter with Bundy”. It is not the same to say “I am in a hurry, I don’t have time to help you” to a stranger with his arm in a sling walking around Lake Sam (as one person bothered by him said )- than to escape certain death fighting fiercely – the way Carol DaRonch did.
Take care
Bart
Maarten-
You need to read the available Bundy books, as most of your questions will be answered by doing so.
And i wonder what it was like for bundy to be on death row in Florida.
How was he in Jail? did he talked a lot with other inmates?
Was he in his cell the whole day or what was the regime like in florida state prison for Bundy?
Greetz Maarten
Hello,
I have never written this before, but in the Spring or Fall of 1973 in Portland, OR, at about the age of 16 I had an interchange with Ted Bundy and walked away from it unharmed. At the time I looked just like the photos of any one of the women he murdered. I am wondering how many other women out there were lucky and smart enough to walk away from him before he could get them. I hope I am one of many and not one of just a few.
I’d be willing to write down and share the events and details of my encounter with him, but not necessarily all here on an open website.
Alaina
Would love to hear your story. judgey77@hotmail
.com
Bundy had to have known she survived. And no, he took Healy because he wanted to take her. It had nothing to do with making sure she was dead, as he could have easily killed her while she was in her room. That’s my opinion, anyway.
Did Bundy know that “Joni Lenz” survived his attack? Could this be the reason he took Lynda Ann Healy with him instead of beating her in her own bed, i.e. taking her into the woods so he could be sure this time his victim would definitely be killed?
I also wondered if Bundy had a “favourite” murder? Something he was especially proud for?
Thank you all! Still love this discussion here.
Maarten–
Sure, there were rapes in Seattle at the same time, I’m sure, as rape is not an uncommon crime. Was Bundy involved? Who can say?
And thanks for the compliment about the quote! We writers are often accused of such things, LOL!
Take care,
Kevin
Yes i understand you..
but Kevin i’m not talking about speculation but about facts.
Maybe in the years before the killings began there was a serie of rapes in the washington area or attacks on woman..
If there was then still you don’t know if it might have been bundy who was responsible but it’s still intersting to know..
I like this quote : He lived in a mental world of his own, and he conducted his life based on that reasoning within.
Nice way explaining the thinking proces of bundy
Thnx
Greetz Maarten
Make that “Nancy Wilcox”.
Hi Maaretn–
I cover in my book how Bundy lied about raping Nancy Cox, and then proclaiming he didn’t know he killed her.
Was there a time when Bundy would rape women only, and not kill them? I don’t know. It seems like that could be the way things transpired, but again, if he never admitted to doing this, then we’re in the world of speculation, and as a nonfiction writer, that is where I do not want to be.
Remember this, the way “we” think about things, is not the way Bundy thought about things. He lived in a mental world of his own, and he conducted his life based on that reasoning within. And I assure you, it was far different than most people might think. Therefore, his actions would be very different from the “norm”, even among killers. This is why he did some very bold abductions; and again, abductions most killers would never even consider (Lake Sam, the Viewmont High abduction, the Healy murder, etc) and yet, all of that seemed like the way to go with Ted. See what I mean?
I mean before he actually went on killing he did other terrible things towards young innocent woman.
He first attacked woman with a piece of wood or an other blunt object, because he was scared he run away without raping or killing her…
And he might also raped woman without killing them in his early years..
His first known murder was commited by bundy when he was age 27.. i cannot believe that he didn’t do other terrible things betweens his 18th birthday and his 27th…
Maybe you guys have some answers
Greetz maarten
Okay
Thanks Bart and Kevin for the answers about Curran.
And my first question about rapes
any knowledge about that?
Maarten
Hi Maarten!
Let me correct one thing:
It is not true that Rita Curran worked in a hotel next to the house where Bundy’s mother lived for years!
The location you are referring to is the Elizabeth Lund Home for Unwed Mothers – and it is there that Ted’s mother arrived from Philadephia in advanced pregnancy to give birth to Ted, then she almost immediately left – allegedly leaving Ted-infant alone for first 3 months of his life. I once read that she was even considering to abandon Ted (as a illegitimate kid) but finally her family resolved to take the kid.
Ted is said to visit Vermont while attending Temple University in Philadephia (January – May 1969).
Dr. Holmes told me Bundy admitted killing a girl in Vermont when he returned to the state, and I think Holmes said it was in 1969, but I’m not sure. Holmes also said Bundy mentioned picking up a copy of his birth certificate while he was there. Of course, Bundy later denied killing anyone in Vermont, but he may have been lying. so I guess unless additional evidence turns up, as it were, it will remain a mystery.
Rita Curran has a strong resemblance to lynda ann healy if it comes to looks..
Maybe in his early days he killed girls who almost where replica’s of his ex stephanie.. And later it didn’t matter that much anymore
Just a theory..
I’m very curious what people on this forum have to say about this july 1971 vermont killing on Rita Curran RIP
Greetz Maarten
Ooh before i forget
There is another case i just can’t stop thinking about.
On some websites she is named to be another possible bundy victim.. Name of the girl is Rita Curran and when you read about this crime and when you look at the photo of this girl it seems a typical bundy victim.
I ask myself if it’s true that she worked in a hotel next to the house where bundy’s mother lived for years..
And do people on this forum think bundy killed this girl in vermont. On the other side of the USA, already in 1971 when he was a very good student and everything seems to be fine in his life..
Nobody knows if he travelled in july of 1971
Very mysterious case..i think
I have another question about ted bundy..
Did he ever rape some girl without killing her?
So just rape..
Are there any known cases, maybe before 1974..
Greetz maarten
Great thanks, JRJ. I have come across these theories mostly here, upthread, as I am really avid reader of this forum :). I also review ‘Bundy books’ on a regular (frankly daily) basis plus some other true crime websites.
2175-76 Great posts bart. Except for Kevin’s where did you come across these theories???
forgot to add that there was third theory, “justifying” the use of name Ted at Lake Sam,
According to this, Ted believed that nobody would think he had used his real name during this “Hey. Can you help load my sailboat’ walk around – so he decided to use “Ted”.
But for me – Ted was murder addict, and impulsive man who could resist his desires – regardless of the fact most of his crimes were well planned – he was kind “First – pleasure, then – second thought” perpetrator – specially when it came to some critical stage of his deeds. So – to me – this reference to Ted was not planned, originated from impulsiveness.
There are many theories regarding why Bundy was introducing himself at Lake Sam with his real name.
One theory says he preferred to use his real name in case of running into some friends or acquaintances when luring those girls into his VW bug (he really did meet some acquaintances while probably conducting the “dry run” on weekend preceding memorable July 14th 1974).
Another theory says – he thought his name was so common – there were so many Teds owning VW bugs in the Washington State – the he was safe.
My personal theory is that Ted probably “ALWAYS” (at least up to Lake Same events) – had been introducing himself to his victims with his real name. Maybe it made him easier to conduct his crimes? There is no way to check it out. Healey, Manson, Ball Rancourt, Parks, Hawkings can’t corroborate this theory – as they had been in heaven by then.
Supporting theory to this is that by time of Lake Sam events – Ted was just loosing his grisp on reality – he didn’t care about broad daylight, he didn’t care about the crowds at Lake Sam, he didn’t care about a couple of girls whom he approached – and was refused to help him with “sailboat”, he didn’t care about anything, He was just playing God of Murder – as Kevin emphasized in his book.
Only gigantic manhunt following disappearance of Ott and Naslund was kind a “cold shower” to Ted – and made him stop and lie low untli he left Washington early September. That’s why I believe he didn’t kill Carol Valenzuela August 1974.
Notice – that when he got back to his bloody addiction in Utah – he didn’t use his real name (“Officer Rosland) – so he did his homework.
The second “cold shower” for Bundy was following November 1974 events – failed abduction of Da Ronch, plus daring abduction of Debbie Kent – almost in front of hundreds people at Viemmont Hight School play in Bouniful.
He simply got scared of apprehension and stopped killing until January 1975 – in Colorado.
The main theme of Bundy’s years on death row, actually from Pensacola onward, was the conflict between Bundy’s desire to confess and his inability to do so. He was unable to confess to the murders because his appeals were ongoing. A confession to any of the murders would result in the end of those appeals. His death would follow in relatively short order.
When M&A came up with the third person idea, it gave him a solution to the conflict. He could confess in a way that would not endanger his appeals.
Murder, any aspect of it, was a diversion for Ted. It took him away from his underlying problems. Instead of being a mangy creep, he could be a criminal superhero. I don’t know if he had a lust for blood, but he sure loved the murderer mindset.
Is it too bad those confessions are so difficult to reach. They should be published. I still wonder what really pushed Bundy to those 3rd person confessions (like in case of Michaud & Aynesworth)? Specially he maintained he had done nothing for almost a decade. Was he really so naive that he believed he was acting as crime consultant, “speculating” about some perpetrator who was “really” responsible while “he was innocent”? That is not the case because he was smart. Was he really so deranged and hungry for murder – he wanted to go through his memories aloud and to relive his crimes by talking for hours about them? Probably. Looks like, on a Death Row, he wanted to look “innocent” and “guilty” at the same time – what only pictures his madness.
I understand that in case of confession to Dr Norman or maybe Dr Holmes (?) – Bundy and his attorneys were seeking doctor statement that he was “legally insane”.
In turn in case of confessions to Keppel – he just needed to buy more time. What about confessions to Bill Hagmaier? Were they considered as unofficial and private – and knowledge derived from them was regarded confidential?
JRJ–
It was Bundy’s letters to Dr. Holmes, not Dr. Norman. Believe me, I too would like to read the info Dr. Norman has on Theodore, LOL!.
I can’t remember a great deal of the letters, as I wasn’t that interested in them at the time. I do remember looking at them in my hands and thinking that I need to copy them. But alas, I did not do so!
KYB and JRJ,
Ted didn’t want any record of our correspondence so there certainly couldn’t have been any visits. Bobby said Ted was paranoid. He was, at the very least, cautious. His handwriting tricks were infuriating. My visits with Bobby were in 1994 and 2001.
Regarding to how much contact I had and to relate an interesting tidbit, there were four letters from Ted in August and September ’86. The first was dated 8/26. Although I was meeting him for the first time, it began “I wanted to write and tell you that you have made a difference in how things go for me around here.”
I later learned that he had been silently collaborating with Bobby in my correspondence with him which had begun the previous October. It brings to mind a quote from Winn & Merrill that Ted’s job at the Seattle Crisis Clinic allowed him “to be the anonymous participant in other people’s lives.”
Kevin,
Do you remember any surprising revelations, or anything worth noting, from reading Bundy’s correspondence with Dr. Norman? Do you think those letters will eventually be made available to criminologists, psychologists, or researchers of the case?
Richard,
Can you share some interesting tidbits from your correspondence with Bundy?
Any word on how Lorraine is doing? ?
April–
I’m not aware of such “serious scholarly studies that prove pornography can be very dangerous and lead to violence and pathological behavior”. If you can share the source for your remarks, I’d be happy to study them.
I don’t know if you’ve read my previous posts at this site concerning pornography (only God knows how far it goes back, LOL!), but my belief that watching pornography is immoral, and can easily take one into an unhealthy sexual addiction. It can destroy relationships and marriages. Indeed, I cannot find even one healthy or good thing about it. That said, the types of crimes which Ted Bundy committed have nothing to do with pornography. Bundy’s desire to kill and mutilate women has nothing to do with watching a woman perform sexual acts with a man, a woman, or by herself. These things can be addictive to watch, like I said, and can harm healthy sexual relationships, but can it cause a man like Bundy to want to murder a woman, cut off her head so that he can take it home for further pleasuring? No, it cannot. That type of psychosis has its genesis elsewhere.
Bart–
Dr. Holmes has all of the letters they exchanged, and the notes or recordings pertaining to the interview(s), and I don’t expect he’ll be turning loose of them for any reason. Years ago, I read copies of all these letters, and could have made copies myself, but sadly I failed to do so (I did not think at that time that I’d ever be writing a book about Bundy!)
Good luck tracking down Dr. Norman. Even if you do, he probably won’t speak to you, as it’s my understanding he avoids such encounters. But good luck anyway.
How can I obtain Bundy’s third person confessions to Dr. Holmes or Dr. Norman? Were they ever published? I know from Kevin’s book that Holmes’ interview was mentioned in some Tacoma newspaper. But any more source materials? Thanks.
I’m surprised at how many people are not aware of serious scholarly studies that prove pornography can be very dangerous and lead to violence and pathological behavior. This is not just someone’s opinion. I think the reason so many (men) don’t want to accept this, is because of their own guilt and occasional use of pornography. By denying it is dangerous they can rationalize it. I know this is going to be unpopular but feel it is true.
Yes, Ted was able to do many things that circumnavigated FSP rules. He corresponded with those he shouldn’t have, made unauthorized phone calls, and used booze and pills while on the row. I don’t remember indident of him having the hacksaw blade on the row at FSP. But Ted had a habit of having blades turn up in his stuff in the jails in which he was housed.
Ted was actually busted twice for illegal correspondence in the Hinckley matter. He was successful in his appeal for the first offense, because as was said, Hinckley wasn’t a prison inmate at that time. Ted was then busted for attempting to smuggle out a letter to Hinckley’s parents. Ted tried to smuggle at letter out using his correspondence with John Tanner, a prison minister and attorney. Tanner wasn’t Ted’s attorney and Bundy took a 60 day loss of privilege hit for that infraction.
I thought I had seen some of the Bundy footage mentioned in Jim’s posts. Too bad some pretty good stuff has been lost to time with the cancellation of some of these shows and loss of the footage.
Richard, how much contact with Ted were you able to have? Did you see Bundy when you visited with Bobby Lewis?
You won’t find any record of my correspondence with Bundy either. He knew how to circumvent the logging of his mail. We included our letters with those being exchanged between me and Bobby Lewis during August and September ’86. He also employed more extreme measures, such as disguising his handwriting, to avoid detection.
A transcript of the Fox Files show (5/27/99) is available at Highbeam research if one wants to pay for it.
No I didn’t work at Florida State Prison. I just did my homework and talked to the right people at the right time. That was awhile ago.
As far as Bundy not being allowed mail from other inmates, well yes that is correct. But John Hinkely was not a prison inmate, he was a patient in a mental hospital. Hinkley was not convicted of a crime. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity.
But it is strange that the prison claimed to have no record of Bundy receiving mail from Hinkley, or mailing back to him.
All in coming and out going mail was checked and logged.
There must have been a third party involved.
Hack saws aren’t allowed on death row either. But that didn’t stop Bundy from getting his hands on one. lol
Bundy had people to do things for him both outside and inside of the prison.
NBC probably taped over the Bundy prison footage from 1986.
I don’t remember them re airing it in January 1989. If they still had it then it would likely have shown up on one of their news reports covering Bundy’s confessions and execution.
Another thing that seems to be lost is a news show that aired on the Fox network in or around 1995 called ‘The Fox Files.’
They had a segment on Bundy and played exerpts of Bundy’s taped interviews with FBI agent Bill Hagmaier.
I recorded this but it got thrown out with a lot of my old VHS tapes about 7 or 8 years ago.
They showed a few color photos of Bundy that were taken during one of the interviews.
To the best of my memory one of the exerpts went like this.
Hagmaier: “You chose to sever the heads of some of your victims”.
Bundy: “Yes.”
Hagmaier: “How many would you say?”
Bundy: “I’d say about half a dozen.”
Hagmaier: “Did you cutt off any other body parts?”
Bundy: “You mean generally speaking?”
Hagmaier: “Like hands or feet?”
Bundy mumbled and groaned then said, “Ah, no.”
(Hagmaier wrote that Bundy had talked about severing the hands of one victim during an earlier conversation that wasn’t taped. So Bundy was backing away from that here)
I remember hearing Bundy talk about the Chi Omega murders.
He said, “I had never bit one of my victims before. It was kind of an experimentation.” Or words to that effect.
And he talked about being in a frenzy during the attack.
Jim,
Thanks for the response. You’re quite schooled on the subject of that time, and I really appreciate your comments. I do hope the Bundy silent film (LOL!) turns up, if it still exists, that is. Sometimes these things have a tendency to disappear forever.
Take care,
Kevin
It sounds like you may have had some kind of connection with FSP. Can you clarify that? Were you familiar with any guard named Jerry Stano (heard about earlier in this forum)? Were you familiar with Bobby Lewis?
By the way, do you know how Bundy managed to carry on a seven-letter correspondence with Hinkley when prison rules striclty forbid correspondences between prisoners? The Hinkley letters weren’t caught coming in or going out the front door. They were found during a shakedown of his cell.
No I didn’t know Dr. Art Norman. I think he retired some time ago. I know that in 1989 he was thinking about writing a book on his dealings with Bundy but that never happened.
An emotional Bundy was caught on video during the last week of June 1986. NBC brought a camera crew into the prison and they managed to gain access to the private visiting area where inmates meet with their attorneys.
It was for a news show called ‘American Almanac 1986.’
It was hosted by Connie Chung and Roger Mudd.
They put their video camera right up to the small window in the door and began taping.
There was no audio, but you could see a clearly emotional Bundy wringing his cuffed hands in the air and appeared to be
frustrated or upset about something. He was with Polly Nelson.
When Bundy finally noticed the camera on him he freaked out.
Nelson confronted the camera crew and accused them of violating her clients privacy rights. They fought about it for awhile. Even though they had permission to run their camera they left the prison happy with what they had.
When the show aired in early July they used some of the audio tapes of Bundy’s third person talks with Steve Michaud over the video footage that NBC shot. The video didn’t match the audio because in the audio Bundy was calm, but in the video he clearly wasn’t calm. He was wringing his hands, rubbing his face, and pounding his fists on the table.
Polly Nelson filed a suit against NBC to prevent them from airing Bundy’s 1978 taped semi-confessions with Pensacola detectives. So that never made it in the broadcast.
I used to have this on video but it’s long gone now.
It’s funny that no one has posted it online somewhere.
There is a video capture taken from the 1986 NBC footage in the skcentral.com galleries. Although they wrongly have it listed as being from Bundy’s final night before his execution.
They seem to get a lot of things wrong over there.
I see you’ve already answered that, Jim.I just read your first post before I posted my comment. Thanks.
Wasn’t it about that then that Carole Boone left him, Jim? Maybe he told her something she didn’t want to know!
Hi Jim,
I’m very glad to see your detailed posts concerning that time in Bundy’s life. Also, have you posted before; and have we exchanged comments? I don’t know if you’ve read my book, but if you have, you can see that I spend very little time on his death row years. it just wasn’t my intention. However, I am still very interested in all aspects of the Bundy case, so may I ask you?: Do you have a connection to that time period? If so, how? And do you have a connection to Dr. Art Norman. If you do, there is someone I know who would like to speak with him, and if you have any contact info, I could arrange to give you my personal e-mail address by way of the headsman at this site. You would simply contact him, he would send your email along to me, and I would then contact you. Thanks Jim, and take care,
Kevin
Well, it is very interesting. As ussual, Bundy, regarding himself a consummate gamesman, rejected what was probably his last chance to remain alive, that is insanity diagnosed by court acclaimed psychiatrist. By the way, now I can see why Bundy’s confessions to Dr. Norman of his early 1968-1969 murders (Philadelphia, Vermont, New Jersey?) weren’t taken seriously by investigators. Bundy may have been hallucinating during Dr. Norman’s controversial treatment.
Correction:
Bundy’s penpal exchange with John Hinkley began in late February/early April of 1986. Shortly after the first death warrant.
But he did a lot of writing in August to make up for his down period in July.
This would have been during July/August 1986. Because he didn’t answer his mail for several weeks during this period.
He was put on medication for anxiety.
And he was put on sleep meds to prevent night terrors.
His first death warrant in Febuary 86 didn’t seem to phase him.
Nor did the third warrant in November 86.
But the 2nd warrant signed in June 86 really took a toll on him.
That one really seemed to have him scared.
He was scheduled to die on July 2. This was when his wife Carol told him that she couldn’t handle it anymore. The press was hounding her, and she was getting threats from some of the locals. She left Florida not long after but she still came down to visit Bundy through January 1987. That was her last logged vist.
Those sessions with Dr. Norman really opened a pandora’s box.
I know he broke down with Polly Nelson over it.
Some of the inmates on R wing could hear him crying in his cell at night. But with the help from the meds, and ending his sessions with Dr. Norman Bundy rebounded in August 86.
He begin answering all the mail that had piled up for over a month. He wrote to people that he had been busy with things. But that was a smoke screen. He didn’t want them to know that after seven years on death row he had finally cracked.
He also began that short penpal friendship with John Hinkley.
But I think what pulled Bundy out of his funk was his growing relationship with his civil attorney Diana Weiner. She was willing to fill the role left by his wife Carol.
What’s the source of those ‘treatment and breakdown’ information in the first place? I thought it is all in Polly Nelson’s book which I still haven’t read. But if Richard is not familiar with that, it must be other source.
Jim,
Can you go into anymore detail about Bundy’s “something of a breakdown in 1986?” There’s a detailed time line for that year and I’d like to see where (month and day, if possible) this fits into that.
Thanks
Bundy had a 13 inch black and white TV in his death row cell.
Inmates were not allowed to have color televisions.
But he did not have cable TV in his cell.
Dr. Art Norman was the person who played a tape of Friday The 13th for Bundy during one of their sessions in 1986.
I believe he also showed clips of other slasher films as well.
This was a way to awaken the other part of Bundy.
If he could have, Dr. Norman would have also given Bundy alcohol
to help bring out the ‘entity’ as Bundy called it.
But the prison would never have allowed that.
Porn was also not allowed inside the prison.
Bundy did become aroused after viewing slasher film clips as well as crime scene photos. But Dr. Norman’s experiment failed because the Bundy that was before him was much like a caged animal in a zoo and would not respond in the same way as he would when he was roaming free and in hunting mode.
Dr. Norman’s methods nearly pushed Bundy over the edge and he had something of a breakdown in 1986.
Bundy suffered from violent nightmares and awoke screaming in his cell in the middle of the night. Guards had to hold Bundy down while the prison doctor shot him up with a sedative to calm him down. Bundy cried to his attorney Polly Nelson that he couldn’t take it anymore. So Nelson removed Dr. Norman from Bundy’s case.