Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Bob–
No, Mike wasn’t in any classes that I’m aware of, as he was chief investigator and had his hands full gathering evidence and chasing a homicidal ghost.
You should be able to order the book just about anywhere now; just type in “The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History”.
I wish I could take credit for the site (Executed Today is exceedingly unique, and always interesting!) but I’m just a guy who shows up to answer questions on the enigma we all know as Theodore Bundy! And believe me, I never expected the questions and answers to ever reach # 350, but here we are, and I’m certain it will continue long after the publication of my book.
As to Mr. Madoff: When I first saw video tape of him walking the streets of NY after his arrest, and just out of camera range you can see an arm pushing him; well, understanding human nature as I do, and fully grasping how many people were now hating him (and no doubt wanting revenge) I wondered why some nut wasn’t trying to take him out. After all, if you make enough people really angry at you, statistically speaking, you do enhance the risk of someone attacking you. But when you study the video, Madoff, who is wearing a black raincoat, seems undisturbed. And if you look closely, you can see the outline of the armpit portion of the bullet proof vest he’s wearing. Yet, if it were me, I don’t think I’d want to be there (in public) at all. For if he were to be “professionally hit” they’d go for a head shot, and it would be the proverbial done deal. As such, it surprised he was showing his face in public at all, LOL!!! He should be hiding out like the rat that he is!
Take care,
Kevin
Kevin: I don’t recall Mike being in the class at CO. It was an exciting time I do recall. From an investigative point of view our blood was boiling. Who could do this heinous thing? What monster are we looking for? And, so on! I have your book on order (I think) as Amazon didn’t list it per se. I’ll get it though. You have a great and deeply provocative site here. Keep up the good work.
With regard to ABSCAM that was my cerebral side dealing with WCC (White Collar Crime). I enjoyed the scammer, some of whom are psychopaths although their acting out is less violent. They do hurt people though. Take Madoff who made off with with many people’s life resources. A ‘petite morte’ but a death nonetheless. Take care. Bob Fitz
Bob–
Yeah, I’m familiar with the triad of bed wetting, fire, and animal torture, and how all of these (or perhaps one or two) can often be found in the killer’s history. In Bundy’s case, there was talk of his grandfather being violent, to both humans and animals, but I didn’t come up with any bed wetting, fire, etc directly associated with Ted. I’m not saying it might not be there somewhere, but even if it is (perhaps in a still-closed medical report!) it wouldn’t have altered anything I’ve said or written about Bundy.
I cover in detail the Caryn Campbell abduction from the Wildwood Inn, and If you pick up a copy of the book, you’ll find that chapter quite informative as to how Ted pulled it off, and certain things he later admitted to. Say, do you know Mike Fisher? He was the lead investigator in the case, and the first to bring a murder warrant against Theodore.
And yes, ABSCAM! I remember it, and I always find such things to be quite enjoyable when I hear about them.
Take care,
Kevin
My point above regarding the body found. It was quite mutilated but we determined that the animals did most of the damage. That was one of our best classes in view of the evidence we had to deal with and the notoriety of the case. Bob Fitz
Computer crashed. C’est la computer mort! Re the triad stuff: bed wetter, fire setter and animal getter we found a correlation in the backgrounds of lots of suspected serial killers. The bed wetter; not the enuresis type, j’ust ‘pissed’ people off’. We would get lotsa laughs but the control factors are obvious in adolescence. The fire setter was pure control and satisfaction in revenge a lot and the ‘exciting agent’ of fire and chaos. The animal getter is a prelude to ‘torture’ of people later on. When we found the body of the lady in Colorado (dentist’s girlfriend?) the dentist immediately became a suspect. Bundy grabbbed her from the motel as I recall and it just so happened we were giving a homicide class to Colorado LE. We discussed the triad in depth and later Bundy was developed as a suspect. In fact, about this time we started to see in class a lot of homicides across the ‘West’ and those areas. Bundy was a bit of an enigma in many facets of personality.
In my own blog (theopencase) I’m currently discussing Sen. Roland Burris (Illinois) and the FBI tapes. I was involved in ABSCAM investigation of Senator Harrison Williams (New Jersey) whom we taped on my undercover boat in Miami. I supervised ABSCAM and Williams was found guilty of corruption. As I used to tell people it’s his voice on the tape. I would say the same for Burris–it’s his ‘quid pro quo’ on the tape. In a thumb nail analysis I would vote thumbs down on him. But, he’ll probably skate! Take care. Bob Fitz on the Rhoad in little Rhoadie.
Hi Jason,
Remember too, that some contusions, scratches, etc, were caused when Bundy was transporting them to his car, through the woods, etc. But yes, anything is possible as to a victim putting up a fight, and Bundy received some injuries this way as well.
Kevin
Hi everyone
The injuries sustained by a number of Bundy’s victims suggest that Bundy may have acted in fits of rage when trying to incapacitate the victim. i.e Laura Aime was found to have a number of bruises and contusions on her body when she was found which indicates that either there was a struggle while Laura was conscious or he had beaten her while she was unconscious. I personally believe with a statement that was mentioned above that Bundy easily struck his victims when they were unaware it was going to happen and it was generally on the back of the head when the victim had their heads turned. It does conform with Bundys own statement that he did not intend to torture his victims physically although it is evident that he did so mentally.
Bob–
I do continually refer to one aspect of “scientific jargon”, and that would be the “mask” Bundy wore that was so well described by Dr Hervey Cleckley; a mask that was so much a part of Ted during his lifetime. But as to those things which may have played a part in “creating” him, I stay clear of it as much as possible, for as I said in my post above, the “why” of Theodore Bundy is not easily defined, and will not, in my opinion, ever be fully understood. I do, however, paint a detailed picture as to the many oddities of his youth, as well as cover the many mental and emotional changes which occurred in the years leading up to the murders, and the very specific transformations which took place during his years of murder. Anyway, I thought you might like a more detailed answer than the one I’ve given above.
Kevin
Hi Claire, Fiz, Vidor, and all…
Let’s be clear about muscle, crowbars, and smashed skulls: It doesn’t take a muscular person to kill somebody with a blow to the head. If the instrument is heavy enough, it really doesn’t take a great deal of muscle-power to deliver a fatal blow. A teenage girl, weighing 98 pounds, could do it in one hit. So Bundy could easily do the job, as any teenage boy could. But he was in fact quite scrawny in build.
And yes, during certain times, a person can be imbued with almost super-human strength, that’s true. But I do not believe Ted was in any type of “rage” when he struck the women; though he was in an altered state of mind at the time, being in a predatory mode with all the accompanying feelings.
Hi Fiz,
I was just saying that he must have been able to gain enough strength to cause a fatal blow because he was in this homicidal rage. I remember watching a documentary that said that humans can, given the right circumstances, lift cars and even trucks. The docu was about surviving and not about the compulsion to kill. I feel when in the mood to kill he must have had more energy and strength than normal.
His victims, given the way he attacked, really could not have done much. Carol DaRonch is a certainly a strong woman who is very lucky.
Keppel uses the best description of him, a chicken s**t killer who had nothing on Gary Ridgeway after he described what happened to Georgeann Hawkins.
I thank god, for my own safety personally, that the ruses of these killers are common knowledge. There’s always been the “don’t talk to strangers” attitude but now I think women are more on guard or certainly more ready to run when something doesn’t feel right.
Claire, if a woman is walking infront of a “disabled” man she is off -guard. There’s a lot of information to the effect that Bundy tended to walk behind and certainly attacked from behind. If you are in heels, longish skirts that were around in the 70’s and are helping out a charming young man in a cast, you are totally unaware of any threat and Ted only had to hit once. The Omega-Chi girls and Cheryl were asleep – no resistance there. It all shows what a pitiful coward Bundy was.
In his recorded confessions with Bob Keppel Ted says that he wanted to explain everything in context because he “saw the look in his stepson’s eyes” and Jamey wrote off questions to him because he just couldn’t understand the “why”.
As far as I know Carole moved back to Seattle to be near her mother after her mother was in car accident. It’s odd though that she never moved back to FL. Nelson states that she was hurt because of Diana Weiner and thye confessions and that is why she never said goodbye.
I’ve always thought that he must have been in a tyranical rage becasue of his lean body. He really does not seem to have upper body strength, so yeah it’s odd. I know a few body builders who could not possibly do as much damage with a crowbar as Ted did.
Bob-
I cover Bundy’s psychological changes prior to, and during his career of murder, and I specifically do not get into the scientific jargon from academia to define him. It would, I believe, be counter-productive, and like I mentioned in a post above, I’m more interested in what Ted did, then why, for the “why” of his life can never be fully solved anyway.
And no, I didn’t think you were chiding me.
KMS
****He might just as well have killed Cheryl too.****
Ms. Thomas, who would be about 50 now if she’s still alive, would doubtless disagree.
AFAIK Bundy’s stepson didn’t find out he was guilty until the confessions at the end. Although, given how Carole Boone left Florida in 1986 and never came back, one wonders if he confessed to her then.
Kevin: Could you elaborate on the tryadic homicide facet of Bundy’s personality? I relaize you are under strictures prior to publication but if you could generally ‘say’ something it might be of interest to your audience. I wasn’t chiding you on ‘remorse’, I just wanted to underscore the ‘remorselessness’ of psychopaths (the antisocial personality disorder APD) as it is called today (DSM–diagnostic styled manual of pschiatric taxonomy). My belief is that the DSM is amorphic with regard to the aggressiveness and concomitant lack of remorse on the part of psychopaths or whatever they are calling them these days. Bob Fitz
Hi Bob–
Yeah, I believe Kemper was killing his mother! And yep, folks like Bundy never feel remorse; at least not for the murders. My recent above posts were statements of Bundy’s “remorse” for having to confront the truth publicly, and as such, being exposed for what he is to his mother, his brother Richard, etc. But, as I’ve stressed over and over again: Bundy, and those like him, LIVE to commit murder, and they are similar in nature to the unfeeling sharks in the ocean. And if Bundy could come back and do it all again, he would!
You have a great deal of experience behind you, Bob, and it all appears exceedingly interesting!
Have a nice day.
Kevin
Hi Topelius–
I don’t know how Jamey reacted, but I’m sure it came as a shock to him. As far as Bundy’s strength, well, it doesn’t take a great deal of muscle to swing a crowbar, and the real destructive power is in the crowbar. But since we’re on the subject, I remember one person writing how strong Ted’s arms were, after she observed them. Well, I have to tell you, I have been lifting weights for years, and Mr. Bundy’s arms, chest, etc, looked quite scrawny to me! LOL!!
With regard to Bundy’s psychopathology I recall he was an exemplar of the youthful tryadic homicidal personality: bed wetter, animal getter and fire setter (as I related to my students for recall). Not having the benefit of perusing every thread on this site, I don’t know if this was discussed. Bundy had no remorse! He was a BS’r’s BS’r’! Pschopaths have high intelligence and read their adversary intuitively. They ‘smell’ fear which I used to say was their ‘exciting agent’. With regard to their viciousness; their rage has something to do with it. I know of no ‘kinder’ psychopath. Bulger played with his victims (in one case pulling teeth, mutilating, and shooting the guy twice because he didn’t die with the first shot). He pleaded for Bulger to kill him. Bulger, as an FBI informant was torturing an FBI informant! Irony? No, just sadism and rage with perverted brain distortion. Bundy could and did act out in the same manner. I believe he played with his victims in the a similar manner as Bulger; as most sadistic psychopaths do under their control. Psychopathology is on the rise, I suspect, along with aggression and with the incarceration records it will get worse. It’s tough out here so watch yourself. Bob Fitz
Last post 5/19/09: With regard to Bundy ‘killing his mother’ there was nothing ‘scientific’ about it just a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) given our FBI caseload of other suspected serial killers. I think of the serial killer in California (Kemper?) ‘killing his mother’ as I recall those bull pen sessions. When teaching homicide or death investigations we instructed the cops to bring an unsolved case from his jurisdiction. As a unit in class we would then attack the case in depth. Solved a few too (I recall several sexual asphyxiacs (accidental deaths) both male and female as eye openers). We worked with pathologists primarlly and each student had to witness the autopsy. Kinda ‘hands-on’ and OJT training all at once. I also taught Hostage and Terrorism but mostly from a psycholinquistic viewpoint through threat analysis and proxemics and pupillimetrics (ph). Nothing has changed substantially as ‘human nature’ has not changed substantially. Just a different environment and more aggressive escalation. What I recall about Bundy is the ‘escalation’. No real ‘rhythm’ but more bodies (some copy cats etc.) spurring more intensive investigation. We initiated profiling mostly through the inductive process of pattern analysis nationwide. In the FBI we instructed nationally and internationally and built up a great database. It worked well with some of the greatest agents I’ve ever worked. Now, you can watch it all on TV! Bob Fitz in RI.
So, how and when did this Jamey learn the truth about Ted Bundy?
How did he actually react? What about Carole Boone, how in the world did she think that her “bunny” was innocent after the trial, huh.
One thing about Ted came up to my mind. Have you noticed how vicious his blows to his victims were, after all, Ted was rather small and, skinny, if you will. Where did all that power come from..
Thanks, Richard. I couldn’t remember the kid’s name off the top of my head.
Carole Boone’s son was Jamey.
Ted was capable of honest moments, however fleeting they may be. For example, he was not happy having to admit he was the vile killer the law had been saying he was all along, for he understood it was going to hurt certain people he loved; in whatever manner Ted-the-sociopath could love. I am sure it bothered him greatly to know how terribly this was going to hurt his immediate family; especially his mother and his younger brother Richard. He was also feeling badly about how Carol Boon’s son (Jason?) was taking it when he learned the truth about Ted. So Bundy was able to feel remorse over being found out, because of how it effected his family, but we can’t mistake that for actual remorse. Ted was never sorry for having committed murder. But he did feel badly about hurting certain people with which he maintained an emotional connection.
I appreciate the responses. Oh, right. Sorry! I hadn’t considered the privacy issues. When so much is out in the open already it is too easy to lose sight of that.
I feel very bad for his family as well. Kind of related to that – why did Ted start crying during his mother’s testimony in the Chi Omega trial? It is probably all speculation anyway but I don’t imagine he was crying for her. Is it more likely to have been for himself because, like in his last confession that was just shared, he was not who she believed he was?
Make that one “the” in the above comment, LOL!!
Hi Jason–
Keep in mind, Dr. Lewis was looking for ways to keep Bundy alive. There are many in the medical field that do not believe someone like Bundy could simply be evil. No, they expound, it’s a chemical problem in their body, or their brain, or any number of things; as if, even if it’s true, that’s an excuse for his diabolical crimes. By doing so, they make him THE VICTIM, and in that position, they hope to receive mercy from the court and society. And for all of their education, and their supposed intelligence, they show themselves to be exceedingly lacking in good judgment. Believe me, I have seen some very vile killers walk FREE, after the medical field said they were no longer a danger to society (after first saying they were too mentally ill to be tried in a court of law, thus saving them from the the law). Yet they were every bit as dangerous when they left their care. Unbelievable.
I believe that Ted spoke to his mum twice before he was executed. Both of them were to his mother and he made one attempt to contact Carol Boone who i believe did not answer the phone. I dont even think anyone showed up to his last visit except for his lawyer and Diana Weiner which proves how much Ted hurt the people most close to him.
I recently recieved a copy of Polly Nelsons book on Ted Bundy and reading through the court transcript taken from the appeal court, it was stated by a psychatrist (I think Dr Lewis or someone else) that Ted suffered from bi-polar mood disorder and a timeline was produced in which certain periods in his life could be explained in relation to his illness. What are your views on this? is it possible that Ted was in fact bi-polar?
Hi Fiz–
You’re so right. What a nightmare for the Bundy family. People have a tendency to forget that Bundy destroyed his family as well. Even though I never had the chance to interview any of his immediate family, I assure you, the events of Ted’s life have, in some form or another, altered their lives forever. They too are victims of his crimes, but the suffering will be somewhat different than those of the families of the murdered girls. But it’s suffering nevertheless!
Hi Nicole–
There were only a few times when I heard something so strange that I felt I couldn’t put it in the book, but no, I couldn’t divulge it in a public forum. These are privacy issues, and I am cognizant of the fact of how important these issues are when dealing with innocent people. Suffice it to say that you’re not missing anything; and certainly not anything about Bundy. Everything strange he ever did is in the book, I assure you.
Bundy said something like “there was a part of me that was hidden all the time.” I remember seeing the photograph taken by a photographer from the Tacoma News Tribune showing Louise Bundy talking to Ted on the phone from her home during that last conversation. Very sad situation for the Bundy family.
Nicole, one thing I know he said to his mother was”I’m sorry I’m not the man you always thought I was”, which has to one of Ted’s famous oblique “confessions” . Louise, poor woman, is said to have replied,”You’ll always be our precious son”. Personally I feel sorry for Jonny Bundy – he took Ted and Louise, and his surname has turned into the word for ultimate horror.
Hi, I think it is great that you are taking the time to discuss your book with us. I am disappointed your book won’t be out in time to help with my essay but I think I will buy it anyway since I’m very curious about the new insights. Earlier in these comments you mentioned that you had found out some bizarre things that were fit for the tabloids. I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind sharing some of those bizarre things you found out but could not include in your book. I’ll probably never find out otherwise. I was also wondering if anyone knew what Ted Bundy said to his mother during the phone call the night before he died. I’m not sure if I actually read that he confessed to his mother before he died or not.
Hi Fiz–
And just think, if it wasn’t for the persistence of her neighbors, on the other side of the wall at their duplex, Bundy would have most certainly killed her. At least she lived through the ordeal. Still, she suffered terribly because of the attack.
Everything that happened in Florida was appalling, but another thing that upset me so much is that Cheryl Thomas, although she did not not die, did so effectively. Cheryl was a dancer and Bundy’s attack on her destroyed the nerves that help balance. A.and M. have her learning to rebalance and trying to learn to dance again, Ann Rule, who attended both Florida trials has Cheryl limping into court and being unable to dance ever again. If you’ve danced, you’re addicted (take it from me, I used to dance) and to find out you cannot do so again is devastating. “Dancing, which had been her life and was to be her future, was no longer possible” to quote Ann Rule. He might just as well have killed Cheryl too.
Actually, there were two women, and both were at Sherrods, and later gave statements to police. Bundy was not getting anywhere with them or anyone else at the club and may have left soon after this encounter. However, he may have stayed in the vicinity and I believe, based on other factors which are in the book, his plan to attack Chi Omega was hatched soon after this.
Like I said in the above post, it had been a really long time since I had read that portion of the manuscript, so I missed the time frame a little bit by speaking off the top of my head, as it were. But the key element in all of this (in my mind) was that Ted, soon after his last KNOWN failure in the club, decided to attack the sleeping coeds next door. I believe he made the decision to do so based on something I talk about it the book, and something he said to a lady on the street as she was passing by him. And it was most likely almost two hours before the actual attack.
Also, the lady he chased down the street was earlier in the evening, and I write about that incident as well. So I cover this activity from all angles, and I believe my book will give the reader a clear picture of his rather disjointed activities on that evening. Keep in mind too, that Bundy never really wanted to talk a lot about the events of that evening, and he was more than happy to keep people in the dark about it. But no matter, there were plenty of witnesses and events to paint an accurate picture of what transpired that night in Tallahassee.
That encounter with a witness at 12.30 am must of been the girl he was chasing along the street which was said to be roughly 2-3 hours before Bundy struck in the Chi O house. From then, he must of strolled around looking for victims and then by 2.30-3.00 am he decided to attack the girls in Chi O. Would that be a fairly accurate statement? That would concur with that gap in time where Bundy was contemplating entering the Chi O betwen 12.30 am and 2.30 am.
A correction: I rechecked the manuscript (I hadn’t read this portion in a while) and I have witness describing her confrontation with Bundy at Sherrods at approximately 12:30 am. So that would probably make it sometime around 1:00 am when Ted must have made the decision to enter Chi Omega. However, because of something that happened soon after this encounter, its obvious to me that Bundy had already determined to attack the sorority later; later being after Sherrods had closed, which is in fact what he did. Of course, at that point there was still a chance, had Ted found what he was looking for on the streets after he left Sherrods, he may not have attacked Chi O at all. So we still have a time-line of perhaps two hours where Bundy contemplated and was in the process of waiting for the proper moment to enter the premises. The “window” of time may be a bit smaller from my above comment, but not by much, and it is enough to make it a somewhat premeditated act in legal terms. Anyway, in the interest of exactness, I wanted to pass that along.
Just wanted to let everyone know that I just went to a site: tower.com books, and they have a large listing of new McFarland books with a release date of July 5, 2009, and this includes my book. This, of course, goes with what others have been seeing at Amazon and others, etc. So having seen so many McFarland titles with a July 5, ’09 date makes me think that it’s probably an actual (or very close to actual) release date. So that’s good!
Hello Claire, Jason, and all…
Several points: Although Bundy was drinking, the energy driving him to kill came from deep inside him. As such,if he was tipsy, or stumbling (and he certainly wasn’t stumbling) it had little to do with that terrible desire to murder he was unleashing on that night. True, alcohol was a jump-starter for Ted, but he didn’t need it as an aid to murder, he just enjoyed his “jumping-off” points while feeling the effects of the drink. So it’s not like he sobered up and said: “Oh my God, what have I done?” We might say, the alcohol produced the FIRST altered state of the evening, but only a minor one. The real “kicker” for Ted came in anticipation of, and during the attack.
Also, you really do need to wait to read that portion of my book to understand what I’m talking about when it comes to a time-line. Where I know something for a certainty, I say so, and when I’m not sure I’ll either not state an exact time, or I’ll handle it another way. However, I do break some things down to minutes, and I place all the players – the cops, Bundy- and the victims- in the scene (if you will!) and show you what they’re doing at the same time. Don’t ask me to be more specific at the moment ’cause I can’t.
You know, while it’s my opinion that Bundy probably stumbled upon the Thomas residence, I won’t be dogmatic about it. Perhaps he did see her earlier and came back to to get her. But we must remember, Ted Bundy thought nothing of walking up to the windows of strange houses when he was looking for a victim. No matter how he came upon Cheryl Thomas, he peeked into many windows that night, and all of them were in a relatively close proximity to one another. As such, it could have easily been a random attack.
Also, what about the Holiday Inn? I can’t recall it from my research pertaining to Florida (that is, not a Holiday Inn having to do with Tallahassee), but that doesn’t mean I didn’t see something about it somewhere and either felt it wasn’t important to the story, and now I’ve simply forgotten it.
I’m not sure if the book will be out in July, but perhaps it will. Perhaps the production staff at McFarland is moving faster than I anticipated, so we will have to see. I know that once I receive the page proofs, I will read through the entire book to make sure everything looks okay, and I’ll add the page numbers to the index I’ve already created. Then, the following morning I will “over-night” the package to them, and at that point (I’m told) the book may only be days from press time! So we’ll see.
Hi Kevin
The documentary which stated that Bundy met Cheryl Thomas in a supermarket queue on a earlier occasion was Conversations with a Serial Killer. I think its possible that this fact may have been inaccurate but coupled with another documentary which is called Ted Bundy: Serial Killer (another UK documentary), it was stated that Bundy had been peeping into Cheryls room and had plans to burglarise her premises at some point prior to the Chi O attacks. I was thinking this may have been correct because as Bundy was in what he called his ‘barbaric’ and drunken state, i believe it was unlikely that he could randomly locate Cheryls apartment without having prior knowledge of where her premises was. I believe that he must of come across the same apartment before based on the manner in which he entered the premises (through the kitchen window) and the state of mind he was in at the time.
lol i am really looking forward to finding out why Bundy made a number of decisions on that night as you could probably tell that i have an interest as to the events that transpired that evening. One question about the timings is that if Bundy had decided to attack the girls at the Chi O house at 11pm, then why would he approach two individuals (both males) and ask for directions to a Holiday Inn between 2.30-3.00am and also stalk and chase another female two hours before he entered the Chi O house? As you say he did have knowledge that members of the Chi O house frequented in sherrods but the timings above indicate that his decision to literally go into the house and blugeon the girls inside was made at the last minute. His initial plan was to find someone who was out, in terms of in a club, walking down the street etc. Once he failed in finding a victim, with his knowledge that the Chi O house was full of sleeping Co eds, he decided to enter and commit the attacks. Generally, my idea is that the Chi O murders were random and the Cheryl Thomas was not.
There’s a lot of confusion it seems with the Chi O murders. Hopefully we will be going “aghh I see” come July. Is it likely to be July now Kevin?
I do think although Ted was not careful he must have sobered up a bit when carrying out the attacks because nobody heard him. I think that hadn’t it not have been Nita Neary the attack might not have been reported till morning (at least normal waking time).
I think the “episodes” that George is refering to is to “frenzy episodes”, going from my reading of Defending the Devil. He states that he had gone through a fenzy episode or two when asked if anything like the Chi O attacks had happened before. I took it Ted meant attacking lots of women on the same night.
Hi Jason
I don’t know if Bundy had seen Thomas that night, but (and I describe all of this in detail in the book) he spent a good portion of that evening trying to obtain a victim, but was unsuccessful. He was also seen by witnesses peering into various apartment windows at different times that evening, but I do not know if this included the Thomas apartment. It’s possible he did look in her window at some point, and return later, but I certainly do not think it was a case where he actually targeted her from a store somewhere, followed her home, went other places, and returned to her apartment later and attacked her. That would have been far too much organization for Ted to deal with at this point in his life. He had greatly changed, and he was no longer the careful (careful, as in trying to conceal his intentions) killer he had been in the preceding years. As such, I think the assault on Thomas was totally random, and I found nothing in my research to point me in the other direction.
Concerning the attack on Chi O: Without going into great detail, let me say that Bundy was well aware that many Chi O members could always be found at Sherrods, and he understood this long before the night of the attack. And on that very night, Bundy tried in vain to lead women away from the night-club but everyone refused his offers, and it seems without question that Ted knew Chi O members were in attendance. Now, based on the time-frame of his activities, and the statement someone made outside the club later that evening (no doubt Bundy) it is entirely possible Ted decided to attack them by at least 11 pm, but certainly (in my mind) no later than midnight. And if sometime around midnight is correct, then you can’t really call that the spur of the moment, as Bundy wouldn’t enter Chi O until well after 2 am. Having said all of this, I still believe that Bundy tried numerous times in vain to capture women throughout the night, and that if he’d been successful, he would not have attacked Chi Omega. And as you will see in my book, I address this very issue, and once you see what I have to say about WHY ted ultimately made this decision, you’ll be saying “Oh, I see that”. At least I hope so, LOL!!
Hey everyone
I would like to comment on what you said kevin in 303 with regards to Chi O and the Cheryl Thomas murders. I have seen two british documentarys in which it states that Ted DID have prior knowledge of Cheryl Thomas and her apartment before the events that transpired on that night took place. In one documentary called Serial Killers:Ted Bundy from the UK, i believe a florida detective stated that Bundy had seen Cheryl in a queue at a supermarket and proceeded to follow her to her apartment. He also stated that on the night of Chi O, Bundy was peeping into Cheryl Thomas’s premises and while he was trying to ‘relieve himself’ he was somehow disturbed and then he went to sherrod’s with the intention of returning to Cheryl Thomas house by later that evening.
In relation to the Chi O killings, in the book TOLW by M&A, there were a number of police reports that suggest that the murders in Chi O was actually a spur of the moment. According to the evidence produced in TOLW, Bundy was seen muttering to himself on a park bench outside Sherrods by a group of males which suggests that he was contemplating what his next move should be. It is possible that he was angered at not finding any victims and so from there, he proceeded to stroll on the streets and came across a young girl who started to follow. She managed to escape, i believe, and then he asked two individuals for directions to the nearest holiday inn where it is believed he planned to visit to see if there were any women or girls that may be around. So with the fear of being seen, he decided that he will try the Chi O after seeing women leave and enter the premises.
My general theory is that on that fateful night, Bundy had every intention to kill and due to the changing circumstances that took place that night, his compulsion went beyond any self-restraint he may have had and this is reflected in the disorganised way he murdered the young women.
Bundy’s address in Tallahassee was 409 West College Ave, and yes, Google earth is amazing; especially when one uses the street view. Doing this, you can look at all angles of the street. And while the house in Tallahassee is no longer there (it burned down, I believe a few years ago) the massive Oak tree still stands in the front yard, and its branches are tremendous.
And yes, Bundy’s sphere of murder is rather small in Tallahassee, isn’t it? Tell’s a lot about Ted’s mind-set at the time.
I actually do mention the girl, Vidor, and I speak only of her seeing Bundy that evening, and how handsome she believed he was. Of course, she wasn’t alone here. Others who saw him that night said the same thing. But you know, I just couldn’t bring myself to relate something so personal as what she told the detective when he was conducting his investigation. I just felt like it wouldn’t be the proper thing to do. On a side note: After I finished this chapter, I attempted to locate her to ask her a question or two. These were things I could go back and insert into the story without any trouble at all. But as I was conducting my research just to track her down, I discovered she’d passed away some years earlier. I was surprised at that, seeing she was still such a young woman. I then considered contacting her parents, but almost immediately changed my mind. Nope, I thought, I think I’ll just leave them alone!
George, keep in mind, Bundy may have killed the Burr girl, we just don’t know for sure. But we do know he’s a killer of very young girls, as well as women. I can’t remember where he referred to murder as “episodes” but I know he also called it “acting out”, in his attempt to sanitize it all.
“TOO embarassing”, not “to embarassing”, ugh
***This is a valuable bit of info because it disproves Bundy’s assertion at one point that any similarity among his victims was mere coincidence.***
I think we’re conflating two different, albeit similar, things here. The speculation by Ann Rule was that Bundy was deliberately killing girls that looked like his ex-girlfriend. In fact there doesn’t seem to be much evidence that this is true.
Bundy specifically denied it, saying that the victims simply “fit general standards of attractiveness”. That’s no doubt true. But they were HIS standards of attractiveness. Obviously, he had a type. So far as is known, all of his victims were white. Most were between the ages of 16 and 22, and many were college students–but Oliverson was 25, Cunningham was 26, Culver was 13 and Leach was 12. Most were brunettes, but Ott and Rancourt were blonde. Most were middle-class types, although he’s known to have offed hitchhikers. He isn’t known to ever have killed a prostitute, which for a serial killer is kind of unusual. Ott was barely five feet tall and weighed less than 100 lbs, Aime IIRC was six feet tall, but most of them were what one might consider attractive. He had a type. That’s obvious.
On a completely unrelated subject, Google Earth and Google Maps are powerful tools. One can find the addresses of The Oaks and the Thomas apartment in Tallahassee by looking through one of the court briefs linked to from the Bundy Wikipedia page (the address of the Chi O house is obviously easy to find; the sorority is still there). So with Google’s various mapping tools you can see where these places relate to each other. The first thing that surprised me was how close they were, just a few blocks–obvious once you think about it, as Ted was on foot that night, not trolling in a VW, but still. The second thing, which I found quite revealing, is that the Chi Omega house is west of The Oaks, and the Thomas apartment is STILL FURTHER WEST. Such was Bundy’s mania that, after having attacked four girls, and knowing that the police were quite likely to soon appear, he did not scurry back to The Oaks but went in exactly the opposite direction, putting the police between him and his sanctuary, in order to attack yet another girl.
Anyway…
Kevin, why didn’t you include the story about the Native American girl who spotted Bundy at the auditorium in Bountiful? It’s not to embarassing to note that someone in attendance spotted a handsome, well-dressed man and was attracted to him.
Hi just wanted to point out bundy had stated that he had been or had been involved in “episodes” prior to the florida crimes.now we know he had killed young girls before kim leach.what about the chi omega attacks? bundy described the manson murder like a nightmare.he also said he had had thsee episodes before.any connection
Chi Omega stood next door to Sherrod’s, and Bundy was familiar with it. I believe, based on what occurred that night, Bundy probably decided to attack the women of that sorority at least by 10 or 11 pm, so it wasn’t on the spur of the moment. He intended the Thomas girl to be perhaps his last kill of the evening, and I doubt he had any prior knowledge of her or her apartment before the murders at Chi O. Once he finished at the sorority house, he was simply on the hunt again, and it was Cheryl Thomas’ misfortune to have been chosen randomly by Bundy.
And yes, I have a good deal to say about the changes in Bundy ; changes that were so evident in Florida.
Hi Ted, Claire, and everyone–
I did not include the Bundy/ Aime connection ’cause I’m somewhat skeptical about it. I also believe, (as Ted has mentioned) that he didn’t really want to hurt someone he knew, and I say this despite the “attempted” murder of Kendall on two occasions. I think knowing the person would have actually hindered Bundy when it came to his fantasy life and those things he wanted to do with them. Abducting and murdering a stranger, in Bundy’s world, was the ideal situation.
I have my own theory as to why the murders of the Leach and Culver girls happened as they did, and I speak about them in the book. I also compare them to other murders he committed, and Ted’s psychological state when they occurred.
Gotta go for now, but I’ll pick up where I left off later this evening.
I think all the books out there have something to offer. Each coming from a different perspective. I have no doubt Kevin’s book will add something too. Some books are better written than others but I like Rule’s book despite all the criticism it has undertaken. It does not however explain any pyschology or motives. It’s true, Rule had it wrong with Diane causing him to murder innocent women.
I’ve always wondered about the age thing. Ted Bundy is not classed as a paedophile but certainly if you take into account Kim Leach and Lynette Culver and a few other minors it is clear he was to some extent. Yet Julie Cunningham was only 2 years younger than Bundy when he murdered her so is it must be more of a look her goes for rather that age. The look of the women and girls has been addressed but never the ages.
The Laura Aime connection would certainly be a significant departure to his MO. I remember reading in Liz’s book when he almost confessed to her from Pensacola, that he had tried to murder her. The way in which this would be done was to gas her to death with Carbon Monoxide fumes which again goes against the MO. I guess murder was on his mind 24/7 not as he would later describe it as being something which was only 20% of his thinking time.
I’ve always overlooked the Killer Next door as I just thought it would offer nothing new to which I already knew but I’m going to hunt it down now thanks to the rave reviews.
With regards to Nelson’s book I believe it to be the only book (so far) that has the Florida confessions in them. He mentions (again this could be a lie from Ted) that he did not intend to enter the Chi Omega house and that it was a spur of the moment thing. He says he had been planning on attacking another house. I wonder if he meant Chery Thomas’s house. Cetainly if this is how the Chi O murders happened then it shows the deranged state he was in, not thinking clearly.