Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Hey guys-
First off,thank you Jason for the link.Pretty interesting.Got me to thinking.There was a lot of debate about Anne Marie Burr.But even if Ted didnt commit the crime,he certainly would have been aware of it.Especially,given his close proximity to the event.Here was a kid who studied everything he could get his hands on about the Boston Strangler while in his teens.The Burr crime may have acted as a similar accelerant to his morbid fantasy life
Thanks, Jason! And just think, I’ll be able to speak freely about all the new stuff after the release of the book, which will in turn, spark additional questions as to how all this “discovery” happened in the first place, ha, ha!!!
It looks like we are definately in for a treat with your new book. I am looking forward to recieving it within the next month!
Jason
Jason–
Yes, I’m fairly familiar with Bundy’s death row years, as it pertains to his work with death row attorneys; his work with Dr. Ron Holmes (the criminology professor from Louisville); Ted’s relationship with Hagmaier; and of course, his end of life confessions to the various detectives. But as to the many interactions Bundy had with other DR inmates, no not a great deal, as it didn’t fit with what I was doing with the book. And most of what I use from this period I weave into the book at the appropriate places, so that nothing of importance is left out of the book.
Hello Vidor, Fiz and all–
Yes, Bundy was looking at years behind bars for the thefts in Florida alone. Without question, he would have been the “guest” of several states until he was perhaps an old man, LOL!
Speaking of Bundy books: I believe I mentioned in an above post that I obtained my copy of The Killer Next Door for only a dollar US and shipping back in 2006. I also picked up a copy of The Phantom Prince in a used bookstore here in Louisville for 6
dollars, I believe, just the year before. Sad to say, you can’t find it for that price now, but I still keep my eyes open at all small used book stores!
While we’re on the subject of The Phantom Prince, isn’t that an interesting picture on the back cover of Ted, leaping into the air, with the back-drop of an isolated and rural woods behind him? That, of course, was an environment he loved, and I believe, once the killing started, Bundy would NEVER associate the woods with anything else other than murder. As such, the woods became very special to him, for it was the place where he did so many of the things he loved; a place where he would create the memories he’d he’d enjoy reliving for the rest of his life.
Vidor
Your right about the Liz Kendall book. I do not own a copy and do not plan to as it is quite pricey and based on the reviews i have read on the book, there is nothing new that the other Bundy books do not contain.
I have recently finished reading Polly Nelsons book and it provides an interesting account of Bundy’s last years as well as his early years via the court transcript on his past. I am not sure if you have discussed this before Kevin but do you look into Bundys Death Row years?
I would like to share an old thread discussion about Bundy which took place a couple of years ago where there is a poster on there who claims to have worked as a prison guard at the FSP at the same time when Bundy was incarcarated there and he talks about his encounters with Bundy. He seems to be honest but you never know. his name is king cobraman and he talks about his dealings on page 2. There is enough material there to leave you reading for hours but here it is: –
http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=483&st=0
Hi Jason–
When my source gave me this info. I thought the same thing: Bundy wasn’t going anywhere, as Colorado and Utah had dealings with him. I also felt it was a bit odd that some folks (maybe only one guy, I don’t know) suggested they do this to Bundy, as it’s outside of what law enforcement is supposed to be about. And I’m certain my source didn’t agree with it, he was just passing off that tiny bit of information after I made the off-handed comment (rather jokingly) that I was surprised somebody hadn’t taken him out. That’s when he told me about it. And let’s all hope that it was just an idle boast from a somewhat frustrated member of what we call here in the States the-thin-blue-line. And I still believe Bundy would have been convicted in the Caryn Campbell murder.
And on that same topic, I finally got around to ordering “The Killer Next Door”–found it on abebooks.com for $1. Also paid $1 for a 1991 edition of “The Only Living Witness” which is supposed to have at least some of the illustrations from the original hardback as well as the 1989 update.
On another topic, having read the Liz Kloepfer book, I would advise not to pay big money for it. Most of the interesting parts were dealt with in the more interesting Bundy bios. And there weren’t any pictures except for a couple of snapshots on the back dust jacket. I got a copy from the Los Angeles County Public Library system.
Polly Nelson’s book, OTOH, is absolutely worth it.
Bundy wasn’t going to “go free” after he was arrested in Florida. If he had beaten the rap on the murder charges, Florida still had him dead to rights on grand theft auto, larceny, and credit card fraud. Colorado, of course, had indicted him for murder. If he had won an acquittal on that charge, Colorado had a slam-dunk conviction on unlawful flight from imprisonment, breaking and entering, larceny, and grand theft auto. Then there was Utah, which had the right to keep Ted in prison until 1991, and surely not only would not have granted him parole before then but would have added time to his sentence due to unlawful flight from imprisonment (two counts!).
That was what I was getting at above. If Ted had just sat tight, he might have won an acquittal in Colorado. Then, eventually, he would have been paroled in Utah.
What they couldn’t have done, probably, was bring a case against him for murder anywhere else. Look at Washington state. Absolutely nothing to link him to seven of the eight known murders, no evidence except the eyewitnesses that saw him with Janice Ott, and none of them even saw Ott get into his car. Bob Keppel’s alternate history scenario turns on the premise that they would have gotten a warrant and searched his apartment BEFORE he’d gotten warning and been able to clean out his house and car.
For the Utah murders–a hair that matched Melissa Smith. Eyewitnesses placing him at the Kent disappearance, but no one who saw him in the company of Debby Kent, and no body. For the Colorado murders apart from Campbell: zero.
He never would have been charged with another murder. And if he’d won acquittal in the Campbell trial, without attempting to escape, he’d have walked free.
I also meant to say that mine is hardback and first ediition, Jason. I had noticed the price had dropped and I wonder if there was a second printing, or a paperback edition?
Jason, it must be several years ago now.Last millenium, anyway! I also have “The Phantom Prince” which a t.c bookseller held for me as I’d asked her to let me know if she ever found one, and it cost me £35 about 15 years ago. All my t.c books are for my kids to sell to any crime bookseller when I’m dead!
Kevin
Lets say if Bundy actually beat the two Florida cases, would it have been practical for those individuals within the law enforcement to end Bundy’s life? Bearing in mind, that once Bundy was captured, he was still a wanted man in Colorado and other states where he had killed so it is possible that they would of extradited him back to those jurisdictions to stand trial for those murders.
Fiz
When did you order the Polly Nelson book? I ordered mine about a month ago for like $21.11 (just over 10 pounds) which included postage and packaging and it was also used. I have just ordered the Killer Next Door book which overall cost me about £7.00 overall. There are some good deals for books on Bundy except for the Phantom Prince which is selling for like $150.00!!
I’m back!
Okay. As to Bundy’s mental status, I would say this: Ted was not insane, not in the legal sense, at least not here in the United States. However, I do not think it’s possible for Bundy to not have a severe mental disorder of some type, otherwise he couldn’t have committed some of the acts he perpetrated against women, both alive and dead. It is, as you know, totally unnatural for someone to want to have sex with a cold severed human head. As such, I would say Ted was very much insane, or mad, but not in the legal sense, for he was able to plan his crimes, hold down jobs, and conduct normal inter-personal relationships whenever the need would arise. So, was Ted evil? Yes, most certainly! Was he having problems upstairs (his mind)? Yes, indeed he was! A strange person to be sure.
Jason–
Keep in mind, the person or persons who decided to do Bundy in, as they say, could never have spoken of it outside of the circle who knew what was going on. It wasn’t an entire department who was willing to kill Ted, but a select few who wanted to stop him.
I will answer the other questions later, as my wife is telling me to hurry so we can leave, LOL!! I’ll see everyone later this evening.
That’s good value! I am also from the UK, and it cost me $50 +p+p for Polly Nelson’s book!
It was clear that by the time Florida had a general idea of the type of person Bundy was, they could in no way release him onto the streets as a free man because more young girls and women would become victims, one way or another. So in one way, the law agencies had the right intentions in wanting to silence Bundy if he were found not guilty in florida. Yet it shows that law enforcement are willing to take steps beyond the law to make sure that once killers such as Bundy are under their radar, they must be stopped otherwise their will be more deaths that follow.
I was looking for the book ‘Killer next door’ on amazon.com and there are copies selling for as low as $0.01. lol. Since i am from the UK, i would need to pay shipping costs so i just ordered one from here. Good price even if the book is used in some ways.
With reference to the report you mentioned Kevin in 379 which was compiled by Emanuel Tanay concerning Bundy’s competence, would you believe that it is an accurate account of the type of personality Bundy was? i believe in Polly Nelsons book, she mentioned that it entertained the idea that Bundy suffered a mental illness which we have discussed before. This, i believe, is a way of rationalising why Bundy chose to kill because based on his discussions with Bill Hagmaier, he simply chose to kill because he simply enjoyed it. Do you believe that he possibly suffered from a mental disorder coupled with his behavioural issues which contributed to making him want to kill?
You know, Richard, police want to solve crimes, and especially homicides. And when it came to Bundy, he was a strange breed indeed. In his case, he was capturing and killing women and young girls who were not, in the vernacular of cop-talk, high-risk. So, whoever told my source that they were going to take care of him, made the determination to stop the killing one way or another. And to be honest, I can’t imagine these folks not wanting to do the same thing with whomever they had, if in fact they were murdering gays or prostitutes. True, prostitutes are considered high risk, but homicide detectives want to stop these murders as well, and if they “knew” that a certain person was killing them, then yes, it could happen the exact same way as with Ted.
Of course, gays are not considered high risk, any more than anyone else. And I would say the same thing would apply here; if, that is, the contemplating officers didn’t let their personal hang-ups (if they have any) get in the way. And so, for the most part, I believe they would deal with a killer of gays the same way. After all, it’s stopping a killer of human beings, and I think most cops would feel that way.
I will tell you an interesting story: A friend of mine was a cop in Florida in the 1970’s and early 1980’s, and part of that time was spent as a homicide detective. Now, I’ve been friends with him for about 25 years, and he told me the story of these two (perhaps three) detectives who were killed one day making a routine stop at an apartment. Well, the chase was soon on for this killer, and they knew he was in a certain portion of the city near the ocean front. Luckily, they caught this guy walking along the beach, having ditched his clothes and his weapon (he was wearing a bathing suit), and they killed him before the “brass” had time to arrive on the scene (they were almost at the location when they killed him, and the cops at the scene cheered that it was over before the Big Boys arrived!). I’m saying this to show how police can sometimes go outside the law to handle a problem. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying it exists, and they’re more than willing to do it if the situation (in their minds) calls for it. One thing I do know, this killer will never kill again.
BTW: My friend was not personally involved in this incident, as I believe he arrived on the scene after the guy was killed.
Kevin, you wrote in 369 (see also 363) that “They were going to kill Bundy. They could never admit to it, but they understood what Ted was, and so they were going to put a stop to him forever if the courts failed to do so.”
I wonder if they would have felt that way if Bundy had killed prostitutes or gays. Don’t forget it was their bretheren law enforcement officers who facilited Dahmer’s murder of Konerak Sinthasomphone and then drove away laughing at the poor kid!
Yes, Utah is where the world first got their look at the real Ted Bundy. And things would never be the same for “Theodore” after this unmasking, for once Fisher knew Ted was Caryn’s killer, he was not going to let go of the case no matter what.
Of course, when the events of Utah became known in Seattle, the investigators in that state knew Ted was their guy, but proving it was another matter altogether. And I’m not sure they would ever be able to bring a really strong case against Ted due to an overwhelming lack of evidence.
As far as Thompson, he did an excellent job on Ted, and Bundy knew it. As you know, the DA dropped the attempted murder charge to the DaRonch abduction, as they believed it wouldn’t stick down the road. But Thompson, and indeed, all the investigators, fully understood that Ms. DaRonch would have absolutely been killed had Bundy secured her in his car. But proving that in court, of course, was not going to be easy.
And yes, Ted Bundy was a man clearly in decline after Colorado.
I do believe that upon his Utah arrest,Bundy’s career ,as it were essentially came to an end.Even had he been acquitted in Colorado,I think they would have built a case against him in any one of a half dozen juristications.Just to keep him behind bars.Remember,he was sentenced 1-15 in the DaRonch case.Given his reputation,i dont think there would be any expectation of parole in his case.Do you think Fisher would have ever given up on making a case against”theodore”?Or Keppel,Thompson,et,al?
In this light Bundys desire to escape makes perfect sense,though his subsequent actions,should he want to remain free,do not.in any event Bundy understood that they understood what manner creature they had caught.One way or the other they werent lettin go.Hence,ted escapes in Colorado
Yes, Bundy’s foot-in-mouth problem is a recurring theme in the book, as it speaks (no pun intended!) of Ted’s dual personality when it comes to the crimes he’s involved with. One of the more enlightening aspects of Ted’s Florida court time, was the hiring of Dr. Emanuel Tanay to help in whatever insanity defense Mike Minerva might want to launch. Dr. Tanay’s ability to “read” Theodore Bundy (and as such, give a coherent reason for why he did these things ) was, and is, quite fascinating, and I have included a good deal of his reportage in the book.
Hello,everyone
One of the more interesting of Ted’s variety of confessions has to be his nocturnal conversations with the Florida police(specifically chapman/bodiford/patchen).In some ways these can be explained by deep depression following recapture.But in many respects they only exemplify Bundy at his most infernal and self defeating.These “sessions”helped Bundy not at all,at least in any constructive,rational sense.But they left the detectives in no doubt that they had their Chi Omega killer.And he said some pretty bizarre things on those nights.”You gentleman knew youwere dealing with a pretty strange creature.And you’ve known it for days”Really,who says things like that under the circumstances,except Ted Bundy? he was obviously eating all this up,regardless of the consequences.They were all HIScaptives ,enthralled ,as it were by his sheer awfullness.Ted loved playing these games ,and would play them again and again in the years ahead.Check out the “Killer next door ” for the most detailed account of these particular discussions.
Vidor–
If you saw my post for Fiz, let me say the same thing goes for you.
Let us move forward, and enjoy the benefits of our Round-Table-Discussion. It should become even more interesting in the days ahead.
Fiz–
No need to say you’re sorry. Let’s all move forward. After all, we all have a commonality of interest in Bundy, what made him a monster, how he escaped justice for so long, etc. And its okay to disagree. Everything is cool. (Am I dating myself with that expression?)
George–
Sorry about that! The above answer was for you!
Hi Ted–
Yes, Ted did do it to himself! I have Mike Fisher’s “take” on it, as he was in court that day. It’s both funny and accurate how Mike describes what happened as Bundy begins to see what his request has created. Of course, that wasn’t the first time Lohr had ruled in Bundy’s favor; and it was probably the only time Ted was sorry for “winning” before the judge!
Out of respect for you and Kevin, Jason, I apologise. However I don’t take it kindly to being called an idiot. I have every single published book on the Bundy case and have read all of them several times.
Hey guys,
Just to add to the discussion on Colorado.Judge Lohr ruled the death penalty statute unconstitutional so the state wouldnt be able to seek death sentence in the Campbell case.And,incidently,it was Ted himself who pushed for the change of venue,though it was against the advice of his attorneys and he had expected,were it to be granted, a city like Denver.
Thanks Headsman! It’s better to be nice, as we’re all on the same “team” here. Let’s all continue discussing the case while having a good time with it!
Kevin
Ix-nay on the amewar-flay, please, Fiz and Vidor. This has been a great thread so far, and I’m glad it’s an open forum for Kevin and other Bundy experts and enthusiasts of both the professional and armchair varieties. It’ll be most worthwhile for all concerned if that’s how it remains.
Hi Jason–
They were going to kill Bundy. They could never admit to it, but they understood what Ted was, and so they were going to put a stop to him forever if the courts failed to do so. to tell you the truth, I’m a little surprised that this didn’t happen to Bundy long before Florida. Don’t hear me saying that I’m condoning such actions, ’cause I’m not. But it was so clear to so many different police departments and agencies just what they were dealing with, that in reviewing the entire case of Ted’s and how many folks were involved, I find it rather amazing Bundy survived it all! But there were (apparently) CERTAIN individuals in Florida who just couldn’t tolerate such a killer as Bundy to just walk away, and they had no intention of doing so. Humanly speaking, I do understand where they’re coming from, but where do we as a society stop such a thing after we get the ball rolling, as it were? Besides, there was plenty of evidence against him in the Lake City case, and the bit marks he left on the Levy girl at Chi Omega placed him at the scene without question. So Ted wasn’t going anywhere.
Thanks for ordering the book!
Kevin
Hey everyone
I have ordered my copy of the book and i am really looking forward to reading it. As Vidor said, only a month until it gets released although with shipping mine may take a little longer to reach me.
In relation to the point you made Kevin about the law enforcement and Bundy, what did you mean when you said they would ‘take matters into their own hands’? Were they going to harm Bundy or bring a case against him?
Do you believe that Bundy actually had a chance of winning the Florida cases? I believe that he did so but for the fact that there were a number of issues between Bundy and his attorneys and also Bundy himself during the trial, this only hindered his chances of being found not guilty. It did strike me as odd at how he believed that trying to conduct his own defense and actively taking part in the trial would make him seem ‘normal’ and an unlikely person to have committed the crimes. Yet how a person can keep his composure with a possible death sentence looming over your head is a mystery! lol.
Yeah, maybe they did decide to pas on it, but Bundy made some statements to the judge that left little doubt that he felt going to El Paso was tantamount to receiving the death penalty, and he was very much distressed over it all.
I’m certainly thinking that the 5th of July is the exact date of release ( what with so many sites advertising it ), and as such, I’m looking for the page proofs to arrive any day!
Kevin
Kevin, pretty sure Ann Rule did say that the prosecution had decided to pass on the death penalty.
I know it’s not really within the purview of your book as you describe it, but it’s interesting. I think it’s symptomatic of his increasing failure to be able to control himself, which of course reached its apex in Florida.
Only a month until the book comes out! Looking forward to it!
Also, Carol DaRonch is not relevant, because the discussion, which you appear to not understand, was whether or not the prosecution in Colorado had enough evidence to get a conviction.
“It’s nice of Vidor to allow Kevin to pitch in – it’s only his thread and his book!”
It isn’t his thread, as he does not own executedtoday.com. And that was an invitation. Idiot.
Yeah, and just think, Bundy would see Carol DaRonch in the Florida Court during the Chi Omega trial!
I’m not aware that Colorado was NOT asking for the death penalty; indeed, Bundy, I believe, counted on them to go in that direction. But of course, my focus was on what happened, when did it happen, and why, so something of that nature could have raised its head, so to speak, but I kinda doubt it . Of course, Utah dropped the attempted murder charge that was originally part of the charge against him in the DaRonch case, so could this be what Rule is referring to?
Also, all of the detectives from all of the states in which Bundy killed expected Bundy to murder again after his release from the Utah prison. That’s why they really wanted the murder charge to stick against Ted in Colorado.
Now, I am going to reveal here something quite interesting that IS NOT IN THE BOOK. And because it’s not in the book, I will speak of it. I will never reveal my source, but it came from someone exceedingly close to the case in Florida, and he only told me after I agreed to turn off the tape recorder. So here it goes: He said that a particular branch of law enforcement within the state had determined, that should Bundy not be convicted in the trials that were, at that time, still in the future, they were going to take matters into their own hands. And after they had done so, they would contact him and say “We discovered a body along the road” and here it is. In other words, there was absolutely no chance Bundy would ever leave the state alive. I guess that’s just the way “they roll”. LOL!!!
I thought they weren’t asking for the death penalty in Colorado (i’m getting this from Ann Rule’s book)???
Bundy believed Carol DaRonch would tetify in a letter he wrote to liz, quoted from her book pg 156 about the approaching Colorado trial “the prosecution filed a witness list and on it are the names: Carol DaRonch, Jerry Thompson, David Yocum and Robert Keppel”.
Is this true Kevin, Jerry Thompson would have testified in El Paso?
I beleive he had a fair chance in Colorado, more so than in Florida because less was known about him and there was less press coverage back then.
Whether or not he would always be behind bars if he’d sat tight in Colorado, I doubt it. He was of more interest to WA and UT authorities after 1975 and so it would only be a matter of time if he were free after serving his UT sentence and being aquitted of Caryn Cambell’s murder, that he would kill again and this time he’d be on the public radar.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
I thought Ann Rule had knowledge they weren’t asking for the death penalty in Colorado. Certainlty he had a fair chance I believe, more so than in Florida because there were less press covering the trial in Colorado.
Carol DaRoch would have testified in Colorado according to a letter written by Bundy to Liz. Quoted from her book pg 156 about the impedeing trial for Caryn Campbell’s murder, “the prosection filed a witness list and on it are the names: Carol DaRonch, Jerry Thompson, David Yocum and Robert Keppel”.
I doubt even if he had been aquitted and served his Utah sentence he’d be free for long. He’d kill again and this time there would be more agencies after him. Utah and Washington were building a case for murder (s), albiet a circumstancial one, while he was in Utah in prison.
Just before Bundy escaped for the second time, he was headed to El Paso County, Colorado to stand trial. it was a more conservative area of Colorado, and the folks down there passed out death sentences like they were going out of style. Bundy knew this and didn’t like it, and he certainly didn’t want to be tried in this district. And while a lot of the evidence against Ted was circumstantial, you never know what a jury is going to do. And this also goes if the trial had been left in Aspen (and had Bundy never attempted escape that first time, which increased, in the public’s mind, the possibility of his guilt). I have a copy of the warrant for arrest, where Mike Fisher lays everything out as to why he believes Ted is responsible for Caryn Campbell’s death, and it is very convincing, so you never know.
Also, (and it’s been a while since I was researching and writing this portion of the book, so I could be forgetting something) but in the pretrial phase of things, I believe they heard testimony from Jerry Thompson and other Utah authorities. Mike Fisher tried to include “similar transactions” (between the Utah and Colorado murders) and worked very hard to get it, but these were later denied by the judge. Still, I cover this area of the investigation because of all the interesting things which came from it, so that the reader doesn’t miss out on some very revealing aspects of the case.
So while I could be incorrect, I do believe Bundy had a very good chance of being convicted in El Paso, County, and perhaps a bit less chance had the trial been held in Aspen.
It’s nice of Vidor to allow Kevin to pitch in – it’s only his thread and his book!
Carol Da Ronch caused Bundy’s first arrest and first escape. Therefore she is relavant.
Carol DaRonch was not a witness in the Campbell case.
Kevin can pitch in, but AFAIK from reading the other books, here’s what they had on Bundy in the Campbell murder:
1) an unreliable eyewitness who failed to identify Bundy in a hearing. Would she even have testified in the actual trial? Who knows?
2) a hair that matched Campbell, but “matched” in the 1970s fiber analysis sense, which basically meant that it was not an exact match like DNA analysis or fingerprints.
3) the gas card receipts showing him in the area, and his lie that he’d never been to Colorado to impeach him with
And that’s basically it. I think that if he’d simply gone to trial he’d have been acquitted, gone back to Utah, and probably been paroled sometime in the 1980s, presumably.
Hi Vidor, Fiz, and all–
You know, I’ve heard some say the Colorado case was weak, and that he may have “walked” as the expression goes. But I kinda doubt it. Still, I don’t cover that in the book because Bundy did escape (twice) from the state, and the rest is history.
I’m not sure, Vidor. Carole Da Ronch was a very weak witness and had been coached like crazy by the police. However the same police said they were close to building a case against Bundy for the murder of Caryn Campbell, so who knows? I suppose we will just have to wait for Kevin’s book now!
Would Bundy have beaten the rap in Colorado and eventually walked free if he had simply sat tight and eschewed escaping?
Hi Headsman–
Well, since Stauffenberg was a good guy, and Theodore was a bad guy, perhaps that’s the way it should be!
Thanks for the kind words, Kevin.
Your turning this post into a four-month-and-counting live chat is one of the best things going on this here site. Incidentally, this is already the second-most-trafficked page here, after Col. Stauffenberg, who had the benefit of a multimillion Hollywood advertising campaign.