1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer

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It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.

Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.

Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?

The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.


Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)

Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.

ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?

I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.

From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.

Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.

The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?

The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.

But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.

Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?

Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.

You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?

They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.

I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?

They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.

Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way

How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?

Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.

However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.

Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.

* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.

Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:

On this day..

Possibly related executions:

8,544 thoughts on “1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer”

  1. Thanks, Vidor!

    BTW: The place where Bundy had breakfast in Louisville was on W. Jefferson St. So after a quick meal, he was back on the road headed south.

  2. ****At this point an astute researcher and writer will determine that such information can be taken at the proverbial face-value, and continue on the road of discovering the truth.****

    Agreed. If you go down that other road you can’t ever be certain of anything.

    Louisville from the map above looks like an entirely logical place to stop for the night. Big city with plenty of fast food places and cheap motels.

  3. And, FWIW, the entire mapquest result for a drive from Ann Arbor to Atlanta:

    Total Time: 12 hours 27 minutesTotal Distance: 770.38 miles
    A: Ann Arbor, MI 1: Start out going WEST on CATHERINE ST toward N 5TH AVE. 0.1 mi
    2: Turn LEFT onto N MAIN ST/US-23 BR. Continue to follow N MAIN ST. 2.0 mi
    3: Stay STRAIGHT to go onto ANN ARBOR SALINE RD. 0.9 mi
    4: Merge onto I-94 E toward DETROIT. 4.3 mi
    5: Take the US-23 exit, EXIT 180 A-B, toward TOLEDO/FLINT. 0.2 mi
    6: Merge onto US-23 S via EXIT 180A toward TOLEDO (Crossing into OHIO). 51.7 mi
    7: Merge onto I-75 S via EXIT 1A toward DAYTON (Crossing into KENTUCKY). 211.3 mi
    8: Merge onto I-71 S via EXIT 173 toward LOUISVILLE. 76.8 mi
    9: Merge onto I-64 W via EXIT 1A toward ST. LOUIS. 1.5 mi
    10: Take the 3RD STREET/RIVER ROAD exit, EXIT 5B. 0.2 mi
    11: Stay STRAIGHT to go onto N 3RD ST. 0.3 mi
    12: Turn RIGHT onto W JEFFERSON ST. 0.2 mi
    13: End at Louisville, KY
    Estimated Time: 5 hours 47 minutesEstimated Distance: 349.64 miles

    B: Louisville, KY 1: Start out going WEST on W JEFFERSON ST toward S 6TH ST. 0.0 mi
    2: Turn LEFT onto S 6TH ST. 0.1 mi
    3: Turn LEFT onto W LIBERTY ST. 0.5 mi
    4: Turn RIGHT onto S 1ST ST. 0.0 mi
    5: Merge onto I-65 S via the ramp on the LEFT toward NASHVILLE (Crossing into TENNESSEE). 171.2 mi
    6: Merge onto I-24 E via EXIT 86 on the LEFT toward I-40 E/CHATTANOOGA/KNOXVILLE. 4.8 mi
    7: Keep RIGHT to take I-24 E via EXIT 213A toward CHATTANOOGA (Passing through GEORGIA, then crossing into TENNESSEE). 133.9 mi
    8: Merge onto I-75 S via EXIT 185A toward ATLANTA (Crossing into GEORGIA). 109.4 mi
    9: Take the M L KING JR DR exit, EXIT 248A, toward STATE CAPITOL/TURNER FIELD. 0.3 mi
    10: Keep LEFT at the fork in the ramp. 0.1 mi
    11: Turn SLIGHT RIGHT onto MARTIN LUTHER KING JR DR SE. 0.2 mi
    12: Turn LEFT onto WASHINGTON ST SW. 0.1 mi
    13: Turn LEFT onto CAPITOL SQ SW. 0.1 mi
    14: Turn LEFT onto CAPITOL AVE SE/CAPITOL AVE SW. 0.0 mi
    15: End at Atlanta, GA
    Estimated Time: 6 hours 39 minutesEstimated Distance: 420.74 miles

    C: Atlanta, GA

  4. Vidor–

    You know one thing I found interesting during my time writing the book? I kept comparing my view of what an abductor would do, with what Bundy actually did in committing the murders, and I was astounded. For example, if we consider the abduction of Debra Kent from Viewmont High during the play that Nov. evening, I kept thinking how foolish it was to expose himself to so many people just to abduct a girl! I mean, he could have spent the night elsewhere, and perhaps picked up a hitchhiker or someone walking down the street. But no, he chose to be seen by hundreds of people. Very odd.

    Take the abduction of Lynda Healy. To enter a house and do what he did, with another coed sleeping on the other side of a thin plywood wall, and believe that he could get away with it? What kind of a mind thinks this way? We (those thinking normally) wouldn’t believe something like that could be accomplished. But he did it.

    As such, what he told Bill Hagmaier may indeed be true (I personally think it is), because Ted was so bold, I believe he may have even left Ott bound and gagged to a tree. For Ted Bundy, I don’t believe we can ever say “Oh, he wouldn’t have done that.”

  5. If Bundy would have committed any murders in states not associated with any of the killings, I’m sure he would have mentioned it at the end, when he was doing just about everything he could to buy himself additional time. This he didn’t do. So to speculate on things which pop into our minds will never lead us to concrete answers; it will, however, breed only more speculation. And to this, there is no end. Believe me, I personally know people who desperately want to believe they’ve run into Bundy, and when I tell them that’s an impossibility (and give them the reasons for said impossibility) they don’t want to believe it. And these folks search for reasons to continue this line of thinking. But those searching out the truth must allow for change, and must adapt to the reality they discover along the way.

    So I guess what I’m saying is this: Again, Bundy said certain things concerning his journey from Ann Arbor to Atlanta, and then his bus ride to Tallahassee. He revealed to Dr. Holmes that he stopped in Louisville. He said he ditched the stolen sedan in Atlanta, and rode the bus to Florida’s capital city. He didn’t murder anyone else along the way, or it would surely have come out later. At this point an astute researcher and writer will determine that such information can be taken at the proverbial face-value, and continue on the road of discovering the truth. In doing so, an accurate picture will emerge as to what happened, and hopefully (and this was so in my case) new and important information will be added to the story along the way. However, if I were to run down every speculative trail in my research, without any basis in fact, I no doubt would still be struggling to wrap it all up, and only God knows what the book would actually look like upon completion.

    And finally: I couldn’t care less if Theodore walked on his hands all the way to Tallahassee, but unless, and until, I receive concrete info. that he did, I’m sticking to that which I KNOW to be true.

  6. I don’t see any reason to doubt Bundy’s story that he drove to Atlanta, abandoned the car, and took the bus to Tallahassee. As Kevin says, there’s no reason to doubt him. There’s no realistic scenario where he would have had reason to lie. Even if he did kill a girl on the way, what of it? Are there any reports of a missing girl along the route from Ann Arbor, MI to Tallahassee? They never even found the car, so even if there had been such a report, which there wasn’t, and even if there had been a body, which there wasn’t, there would have been no way to tie Ted to any crime.

    ****I’m curious if they ever found the place Ted took Naslund and Ott from Lake Sammamish? It couldn’t have been to far away since he got one and then came back for another one within a limited time-span. Plus, it had to be a good place where the first girl he tied up would be out of ear-shot from anyone close by since (you’d think) she’d be screaming in terror. Surely they found the crime scene (perhaps a building)****

    We talked about this upthread, and this is why I don’t believe the story Ted told about leaving Janice Ott alive while he went back for Denise Naslund. Where could he have hidden her alive and been secure that she wouldn’t escape or no one would find her while he was gone? Hard to believe. Much easier to believe that he killed Ott before doubling back to snatch Naslund. As for the place where he took them, well, probably to Issaquah, exactly where they were found. Probably whacked Ott with a crowbar inside the car as he attempted to do with Carol DaRonch, took her to Issaquah, killed her and dumped her, and repeated the process with Naslund.

  7. It wouldn’t be smart to leave the car in or near Tallahassee where he was staying. What it it were found?

    As for a reason to lie, what if he did something on the way that he didn’t want us to know about? He’d misdirect us by pointing to somewhere he hadn’t been. So his route through Atlanta is either truth or misdirection. How can one tell?

  8. I’m not familiar with the freeway system in Ann Arbor, so the I-69 south is perhaps what he did.

    I’m not sure if the authorities found evidence of Bundy being in Atlanta or not (a bus ticket, etc), but it’s what Ted told them, and really, what would be the reason to lie about it? What would it matter if he kept the sedan until he made it to Tallahassee, or took the bus? He arrived in the city of Tallahassee, his destination, and the exact minute, or the manner in which he arrived (bus or stolen car) is immaterial. Therefore (because in the end, it doesn’t matter) we should actually BELIEVE Ted in this regard.

    Good to hear from you, Richard.

    Kevin

  9. Let’s say you’re correct that his confusion in Ann Arbor got him onto I-65 south. He must have left Ann Arbor going west on I-94 instead of south on I-75. That’s way lost. But he could have then taken I-69 south to I-65 south on into Louisville.

    But what’s to say he didn’t continue on from there to, say, Pensacola rather than Atlanta? You have good reason to believe he was in Louisville. Is there a similar reason to believe he was in Atlanta?

  10. Lea,

    Go back and read my exchange of comments with Richard Duffus, starting, I believe, with #22 or 23. This should explain things.

    Bundy came through Louisville, continued on 65 to Nashville, took 24 to Chattanooga, and took 75 to Atlanta. From Louisville, KY, this is the quickest route, and apparently the one Bundy took to Atlanta. It was Bundy’s confusion in Ann Arbor which ultimately placed him on 65 south in the first place. But for whatever reason it happened, Bundy was here in Louisville and drove south as I’ve indicated, ditching the car in Atlanta prior to purchasing a bus ticket for Tallahassee.

    As what’s his name often said in the show “Dragnet” : “Just the facts, mam” Well, these are the facts.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  11. Also, I mapquested Nashville to Atlanta and it shows he would have to drive 133.9 miles to get back over to I-75, adding more than an hour to his trip than if he took I-65 to I-75 in the first place.

  12. Forgot to add, according to yahoo maps and mapquest, the I-65 route would take him through alabama, not georgia.

  13. I mapquested ann arbor to atlanta, and it gives I-75 as the shortest route. I-75 also goes directly through Atlanta.

  14. He didn’t drive to Florida. He drove to Atlanta, and ditched the car in the city of Atlanta. He then took a bus to Tallahassee. If you map quest it, it will take you from Louisville to Nashville to Atlanta. That’s the shortest route.

    I also drove that route on a fairly regular basis from 1974 through 1985.

  15. I 65 south to I 75 is the shortest distance to Florida, I know because I lived in Louisville for a time and we always went I-65 south to I 75 south, it is a straight shot. To go through Nashville from Louisville would take him several hours out of his way. That doesn’t make sense. It is literally almost a direct line from Louisville to Florida if you take I 65 which actually just “turns into” I75, because to continue on I65 you actually have to turn. Does that make any sense to you? Check it out on the map, Louisville to Nashville to Florida make no sense to me.

  16. Hi Lea–

    When Bundy came through Louisville, he was driving a Japanese sedan, and I can’t (at the moment) remember what color it was, but I’m certain it wasn’t Ted and here’s why: Bundy was traveling I 65 south, which would have kept him on course for Nashville as the next major city, and then on to Atlanta. It’s all a straight shot from Louisville, and it’s highly unlikely he was diverted by any type of confusion as the highway signs are clearly marked.

    However, there were (and are) lots of bad folks trying to pick up women and young girls, and Theodore Bundy was but one of many fiends out there at that time.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  17. I may have missed this in some of the comments, but what kind of car was he driving in Louisville? I was the same age as Kimberly Leach when he drove through here and London is on I-75. A man in a white/cream colored car, as best I can remember, told me that my parents had sent him to pick me up. I was at a park near a small college. I truly believed him, but I wasn’t ready to go home, as my mother had told me I could stay until 5. The park was across the street from my friends house. He again repeated that my parents had sent him. I told him I was going to go call them to see if I could stay longer and he told me they would be mad. If I had been afraid of my parents I would have went with him. You just didn’t hear about things like that back then, not here at least. I saw him on the news when he was convicted in Florida and I could have sworn it was the same man. That may sound stupid but it’s the truth. Whoever it was who tried to pick me up did not have good intentions, and I never heard about any other kids being abducted or assaulted. I always figured it had to be someone passing through.

  18. I believe that’s the box with the keys, if I’m mot mistaken. I do remember in police reports Liz telling of finding underwear belonging to women in his possession. So Ted was a collector to some degree. And yes, had Liz found pictures of even one of the missing women of Washington State, it would have been all over for Bundy at that time. You can’t get anything more incriminating than pictures of missing and or murdered women.

  19. I seem to rememeber in Liz’s book when she searched one of his appartments (I can’t remember which one) that he had a taped down box but she was too scared to open it and so she just took some cheque receipts cause he was due to walk through the door at any time. This was when she was looking for signs that he was the WA Ted killer.

    I wonder now if that box contained the photo’s. It certainly would have turned out very differently if that was the box and Liz had opened it. Imagine the horror of those photo’s.

  20. Hi Fiz–

    That’s too bad. Still, it probably didn’t make a lot of difference, seeing that by the time the world realized Bundy was “the one”, the Bundy clan had probably inadvertently destroyed any available evidence simply by using it from time to time. And, of course, the axe was going to fall on Ted without any of this anyway, so it’s not that big a deal.

  22. Hi Courtney!

    I would love to do a signing in Oklahoma, but we’ll have to see if that works out or not.

    You know, I can’t remember if the authorities ever found the exact location, but I think I remember Bundy alluding to (in the third-person, of course) the possibility of using a vacant cabin, or something of that nature. If this is the case, then perhaps it’s within, say, a 30 minute drive from Lake Sam, and that could cover a wide area indeed. If this is the case, it’s likely they never located it; or at least with any degree of certainty. So this aspect may remain a mystery. But who knows, the future may hold a surprise or two concerning Bundy and the murders!

    I would think the Bundy cabin in Gig Harbor has been searched extensively, but that is not something I focused upon for the book,; and I can’t recall seeing any investigative reports among the thousands of copies I have in my files, which pertain to a search of the property. But I can’t imagine it not being searched from top to bottom several times over.

    I hope you keep coming back, Courtney, as I think the activity here will continue for quite some time, and especially so after the book is released.

    Take care.

    Kevin

  23. Wow, what a great thread! I’ve read every single one of them and there is so much information. Kevin you wouldn’t happen to be doing a book signing in Oklahoma would you? That’d be awesome. I’d love to meet you and talk to you about Ted. Can’t wait for the book still!

    I’m curious if they ever found the place Ted took Naslund and Ott from Lake Sammamish? It couldn’t have been to far away since he got one and then came back for another one within a limited time-span. Plus, it had to be a good place where the first girl he tied up would be out of ear-shot from anyone close by since (you’d think) she’d be screaming in terror. Surely they found the crime scene (perhaps a building)??

    Yes, I think their is still evidence out there that Ted hid. But which state would he hide it in or would their be more than a couple? I’d assume he’d taken all his Washington possessions with him when he moved to Utah, but…who knows? I wish someone would randomly happen upon-them, lol

    I don’t know much about the Lake House. Was it never investigated for a potential crime scene for Ted’s murders? Surely it was…

    Thanks so much Kevin!

  24. The cost of the PC in ’87? A good point, Vidor. Perhaps that’s why Holmes said no.

    I believe it was Ross Davis who spotted the cuffs in Bundy’s VW .

    Yes, there are many women, from all of the states where Bundy killed, who had a brush with death, and most of them didn’t even know it. Bundy was a hunter. And like many things in life, it was a numbers game; that is, he wasn’t going to nab everybody, and he understood this, and I make reference to these things throughout my book.

  25. Hmm, I tried an HTML quote tag but apparently it didn’t work…the above paragraph starting “I truly believe that…” was a quote from a previous post…

  26. A PC? In 1987? That would have been very expensive.

    Regarding the handcuffs, M&A mention one of Bundy’s Republican Party friends spotting the cuffs in the back of his VW in 1973.

    I have to take the minority view on the Kendall book–she still seemed to be carrying something of a torch for him. The last line is something to the effect of “the greatest tragedy was that this gifted man was driven to kill” or something. No, Liz, the greatest tragedy is the three dozen dead young girls. One wonders how long it would have taken for Bundy to get caught if he’d never gone to Utah; the strong impression from Kloepfer’s book is that her rage at Bundy for abandoning her in Seattle was part of what drove her to go to the police. How long could he have gone on killing if he’d been content to stay in Washington pursuing his Republican Party work?

    I truly believe that there are countless women out there today who encountered Bundy and escaped who probably still don’t realize it was Bundy who had them in his grasp

    Stands to reason, doesn’t it? We know he tried and failed with five women besides Ott and Naslund at Lake Sammamish. Two different women before Susan Rancourt. Another co-ed before Georgeann Hawkins. The drama teacher and another student at the Kent disappearance. Surely there were others that were never found by police.

  27. Hi George–

    My friend said he believes they were to do the filmed interview sometime in 1987. This makes sense as the Tacoma News Tribune article detailing the first interview Holmes conducted with Bundy was published that same year.

  28. Hi George,

    Dr. Holmes told me during the interview that Ted wanted him to purchase a PC for Carol Boone’s son, but he told him he couldn’t do that. That, he said, irritated Ted. Someone close to Holmes said he (Holmes) had written an article about Bundy for an FBI publication, send it to Ted, and Ted got mad about that. And finally, I think Bob Keppel told me something about why this happened, but I can’t remember, and I didn’t write it down ’cause it didn’t pertain to the book.

    Yes, they were planning a filmed interview, and I’ll call someone later this evening and find out the exact for you. Ted had already agreed to it, but canceled it after the falling out.

    I don’t remember if Bob said anything about the Bundy cabin, but I’m convinced Ted took Brenda Ball there, and may have spirited others away to that cabin as well. I believe it’s located in Gig Harbor, and I know one of the girls who escaped Ted at CWSC was from Gig Harbor too.

    I’ll get back to you this evening with the exact date for the never-to-be film of Bundy.

  29. If it were true, it would make a lot of difference to the families. Law enforcement doesn’t get it. In a case like this, just because the perpetrator has been caught and punished doesn’t mean their work is done.

  30. Hey Kevin,
    I have a few questions.Iwas wondering about the nature of the falling out between Ted and Dr Holmes.Were they really planning a filmed interview? IT seems that would have turned out quite differently than the Dobson interview.For when was it planned?
    Also,did keppel ever suspect the Bundy lakehouse as a possible crime scene?Do you think Ted ever brought a victim there?
    Thanx again

  31. It is my understanding that Bundy first admitted to the stash of pictures to one of his doctors (Lewis?) at the end. Those pictures, Bundy said, were together, in a box, I believe, in the utility room in the basement of 565 First Avenue. He said he destroyed them after Thompson searched his upstairs apartment, so I don’t know where they got this that he had pictures in 3 states.

    I once asked Thompson about the photos , and all he said was that he’d heard the story of what Ted said, but he knew nothing about them. I don’t think Thompson much cares for rumors, and as Ted was long dead when I asked him, it made little difference if it was true or not. Still, I believe Bundy was telling the truth, and that the incriminating evidence was there the entire time. And it’s terrible they missed it!

  32. Hello everyone –
    I have been gone for two days and i wasnt expecting the huge response to this discussion. As always, its been a pleasure reading everyones input on the Bundy discussion. With the publication of Kevin’s new book approaching, i would imagine the post numbers would reach 800+!!
    Thank you Claire for the info on the Liz Kendall book. I have tried to gather as much information as i can from the book (which has not been much) since like yourself, i am weary of parting with £100 only for a book. I think i will take Kevin’s advice and try and locate the book in a local bookstore. If it is ok, i would appreciate if you could scan some pages of the Liz Kendall book. But if copyright issues would prevent this, then its ok.
    You are correct with the information you stated that is contained in the link i provided above. Apparently one of the posters on the board was a prison guard who had actually worked at FSP whilst Bundy was incarcarated. He did describe that episode where Bundy would lie on his top bunkbed and hold onto his flannel whilst facing down with an ‘intense look’ in his eyes. That was one of many stories he told but i am not sure whether he is telling the truth or not.

  33. Hi Jason,

    About the Phantom Prince I found it informative as in that it looks at Ted Bundy on a personal level. His favourite beer was Mickey’s Big Mouth etc. Those are the unsual things in the book that give it that difference to the others.

    Liz’s accounts of their dates are very interesting, she paints a romantic, kindly Ted who goes out of his way, at first, to help her and her daughter.

    You get the letters printed between the two from after the DaRonch case and they reveal a lot about his personality. There is one letter sent to her that shows his emotional instabilty while in Prison in Utah. She had gone over to vistit him and they have a very emotional hour, crying etc and he asks her to come back the next day before she leaves for Seattle and she decides not to. The letter she recieves back at home show’s he was actually either really weak or very manipulating. He really pulled on her heart strings saying how hurt he was she didn’t turn up.

    The DaRonch case is mentioned heavily because Liz lived through that with him and there is a mention of a 24 year old woman visting Ted in Utah who Liz suspects is a lover. This is not Carole Boone.

    Also the police survellience by Keppel when he was out on bail is mentioned and how she beileved he only wanted her around him so he would look normal.

    The end of the book basically reads like love letters. Carole Boone is mentioned in a letter to Liz as a friend who visited which signifies Carole was in Ted’s life from Utah onwards.

    The most newest part, for me anyway, was the conversation he had with Liz when he was arrested in Pensacola. I knew, I think Michaud mentions this, that he had practically confessed to her but obviuosly you get a full account of that conversation. The book ends on that conversation because for Liz it all ended in Feb 1978. So no death row information or trial information either.

    It’s a shame it wasn’t an ebook. I’m not sure about copyright issues but I’d scan a few pages for you if it was above board. I’m not sure I’d pay £100 now because I’m saving (damn credit crunch) but I know at some stage if I ever sell it, it’s an investment. The pictures appear on the back of the dust jacket just so you know.

    The one good thing is you get a feel of how he operated in normal everyday activities like cooking and shopping. His mask of sanity shall we say. If I had money to burn, which sadly I don’t I’d pay it because it’s one view that no other person has of Ted Bundy.

    With regards to those polariods I read somewhere in a thread on a Ted Bundy page (it was maintained by someone called professional widow) that someone had proof (I don’t now how) that he had hidden them all over the place. In about 3 different states. The page has since closed down but I found it very interesting.

    I’ve not read that link posted by you Jason but I think it might have contained this. Some one who said he worked at FSP remembers Ted scrunching up his towel or flannel in his cell, just continually doing it in frustration. Pent up frustration he gathered because he was not free and murdering young women. Is this something anybody has read about?

  34. I forgot to say that in Bundy’s case, the cuffs DO mean something: That is, everything he collected that could enable him to tie up or otherwise incapacitate another person, he had it for that one reason only. However, there is the chance he wasn’t killing in 1972 or 1973. Perhaps he killed before this period (maybe 1969), and had a cooling off period which lasted a number of years before his full time launch into murder in 1974. But even if he wasn’t killing in 72 or 73, he had the cuffs with evil intent in mind. That’s just the way Bundy viewed such things.

  35. I don’t know what Diane Edwards has spoken of concerning any strange behavior Ted may have exhibited. I never sought her out for the book, but I doubt if Bundy was too strange around her, as he was very good at concealing his true identity.

    Having handcuffs in the car may raise an eyebrow or two, but it doesn’t mean a whole lot in my view. If you see someone with cuffs, a shovel, plastic bags, rope, duct tape, etc, yeah, society may just have a potential problem on its hands. But cuffs alone? I don’t think so. Of course, I cringe at the site of those bozos who I see occasionally with a pair of handcuffs draped over their rear view mirror; the intention being, of course, that they want the passing cars to notice them. I guess they’re trying to play cops, but they look like a bunch of losers to me.

  36. I just finished Liz Kendall`s book. Well written and informative, to say atleast.

    I was wondering if Diane Edwards ever shared any interesting insights about her relationship with Ted that could indicate Ted`s future “career” as a killer. Weird acting in the bedroom etc.

    Correct me if I`m wrong but 1971 or 1972 Ted`s friend from politics noticed handcuffs in Tèd`s VW`s trunk. Is there any reason to give a serious look at that? What I mean is could that indicate that he had already started killing women by that time.

  37. That’s an interesting thought, Richard. Of course, it was towards the end of his life when Bundy finally mentioned the pictures he had kept of his victims, and he said at that time of admission, that he destroyed them. And to tell you the truth, I took his statement at face-value as it made good sense to me. Still does, actually, and here’s why: By the time Detective Thompson searched his place, I believe Bundy knew exactly where things were going, and he probably felt that such things as photos were far to incriminating to keep lest they be discovered. But who knows, perhaps he buried them in a sealed jar somewhere, just waiting to be discovered by some kid at some point in the future, LOL!

  38. Of course Bundy wouldn’t have destroyed the souvenirs. He’d worked hard to get it right and didn’t want to forget. It was a stupid hiding place so he found a better one. If he could hide bodies so well they haven’t been found in 30 years he could certainly hide these, probably just across the state line in Idaho. They’d be waiting for him to juice up on when he got out of prison if he was convicted in the DaRonch case. And of course he would have said he destroyed them. He’d be stupid to say anything else. Everyone knows Ted’s a liar but everybody believes that one.

  39. Ted,

    Let me tell you what Bob Keppel once told me concerning Holmes and Bundy: Keppel mentioned once that he believed that Ted had originally planned to make his “confessions” to him (Holmes) and if they wouldn’t have had a falling-out, that he (Bob) may never have played the part that he did. So Holmes was close with Ted, and I believe Bundy respected him because of his education and experience. And before the falling out between the two, Holmes and another fellow (a person I’m friends with) were supposed to revisit Ted on death row and do a filmed interview.

    On a side note: Dr. Holmes is not an easy guy to meet, or get to know, and he doesn’t always respond to telephone calls if he doesn’t already know you. Years ago I twice contacted his office but never received a return call. However, I ran into him one day after I wrote the Bundy article for “Snitch” and I introduced myself to him. He’d read the article, and I spoke of our mutual friend Jim Massie, so these things “broke” the ice, so to speak. After this, it was easy to contact him, and he was kind enough to allow me to interview him for the book, and wish me well on it. I like Holmes a lot, and he did have a lot of dealings with Bundy.

    Now, Bundy did speak to Holmes about particular murders (Ann Marie Burr, etc) but only in the third-person. Still, what Bundy said about Burr is very revealing, and it was later published in an article in the Tacoma News Tribune. I, of course, include this in the book.

    I don’t think Holmes believes Ted killed 300, but as to the exact number he thinks he murdered, I don’t know.

    If I didn’t answer everything now, I will later, as I must leave the house now. The wife, you know. LOL!!!

  40. Kevin, I’m quite certain that your book will be excellent and that the review I write will reflect that. No worries there. It will appear in the Detroit News, a really fine newspaper. I will of course send you a link to it. It should appear in the print edition, which means that it will also live on their Web site.
    I’m interested in the Ronald Holmes info. Bundy swore that he never spoke with him about specific crimes, and that he also never “speculated” about the killer. Yet, I seem to recall that Holmes once claimed that he felt that Bundy murdered more than 300 women, That number seems rather preposterous. Do you have any insights about Holmes’ dealings with Bundy?
    As always, thank you, Kevin.
    Ted

  41. Ted,

    I forgot to mention Bundy’s souvenirs: Yes, don’t you know it must have nearly killed him to have had to destroy those pictures after Thompson searched his apartment? What those pictures must have meant to the sick fiend! And of course, I mention the woman’s belt that was found inside of Ted’s murder kit, and can be seen in the picture above. So yes, there has to be items floating around belonging to his victims, and somebody may still have Janice Ott’s bike, etc.

  42. You know, Ted, I like the way you think! We are alike in as much as we want ALL THE ANSWERS, LOL!! For those of us (and I’m including everybody who continually comes back to this site) who have read all the previous Bundy books, and have sought out the answers to these murders whenever possible, the desire to find out more of the missing pieces of the puzzle, if you will, becomes very important. I believe I mentioned before how I had to obtain literally thousands of papers connected to the case, and how each one had to be read (numerous times, for some) just to gain the entire “picture”, so to speak? Well, in this process, I intentionally obtained information on missing and murdered women not directly connected (that we know of) to Bundy, just so I could mull them over, and compare each case with the MO of Theodore’s; and always with an eye towards gaining any evidence which might link him to it. And you know, just gazing at these young women, many of whom are still listed as “missing” but in truth are long dead, I really began to understand (because Bundy couldn’t be responsible for all of them) what a serious problem is “out there” concerning the killing of young females. And sadly, the removal of Ted (and others like him) from the earth hasn’t changed things.

    A few points” Yes, I too believe Bundy most likely killed for the first time in 1969. I base this on what he told Dr. Norman towards the end. But outside of a brief mention of it in the book, I leave it alone. Besides, Ted’s launch into full-time murder in Jan. of ’74 was the real starting point for him in regards to completely leaving one life and entering another.

    The Killer Next Door: Yes, they were able to “run” with that quite early in the game, weren’t they? Still, for what they had to go with, they did an exceptional job (in my opinion) and the quality of writing is superb, in my view. And they are certainly
    not in the same category of SOME of the writers out there today who believe they have to churn-out something right away. These guys were really good journalists who knew how to research, get to the right people, and get the story in print. To me, it’s a fantastic piece of work on the case.

    Your opinions: Your opinions aren’t off-the-wall; I find them highly entertaining!

    My book: First, thanks for “pushing” it, and secondly, try not to tear me “a new one” during the review, LOL!! All jokes aside, will it be online, in actual ink, and can you send me a copy?

    You know, I am starting to feel like I “know” the regulars at this site, and wouldn’t it be great if one day we could all meet? Anyway, before I turn sappy, I’ll sign off for now.

    See ya

    Kevin

  43. Kevin, you make some excellent points, as usual. The Killer Next Door is obviously well-written, and there are quotes from lots of different individuals, but the authors – through absolutely no fault of their own – didn’t have the benefit of retrospect and reflection because I believe the book was published very soon after the Leach trial. And obviously, a lot happened from 1980 to 1989.
    After years of reading about the Bundy case, and talking to some of the individuals who worked on it, some things seem clear to me. Let me list some of my observations and maybe it will spark more great conversation on this outstanding thread.
    1. Bundy killed way more than 35 girls/women, 35 seeming to be the number usually associated with him. I believe he started in 1969; there were missing and murdered women in both Philadelphia and New Jersey at times when he was in those locales, and the circumstances of the murders had Bundy’s stamp all over them. Also, there are still more than 20 unsolved and very cold cases in the Tacoma, Olympia and Seattle areas from the years 1970-73. Obviously, Bundy didn’t commit them all, but it seems likely he was culpable in a handful of those unsolved homicides. Bundy supposedly admitted to one murder in Sonoma County, California. This can never be proven, of course, but there was one site in that area where the police found the remains of four girls – bludgeoned and strangled – and they were similar enough to the Washington murders that investigators in both states swapped information on the cases. I guess what I’m trying to say is that for every murder that Bundy did admit, I think it’s a good bet that there were five more. By the way, Liz Kendall recounts Bundy taking her to Vancouver for a romantic weekend at one point in their relationship; there was a string of murders in Vancouver in 1973 and 1974 that were very similar in nature to Bundy’s crimes, but they were never solved. Obviously, Bundy isn’t responsible for every unsolved murder in the northwest during those years, but it’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that he might have been responsible for some of them.
    2. I truly believe that there are countless women out there today who encountered Bundy and escaped who probably still don’t realize it was Bundy who had them in his grasp. He would have almost had to have been unsuccessful in his abduction attempts some of the time. There is one documentary out there that shows some pictures of Bundy that aren’t the usual ones we’ve all seen countless times, and in one photo Bundy appears to have a nasty, long scratch on the left side of his face. I’m guessing Liz didn’t inflict that wound. It would be interesting to try to catalogue all the “near-misses” and use that to further track his travels and activities.
    3. I also believe that somewhere there still exists some tangible proof of Bundy’s crimes: a cache of clothing, wallets, purses and perhaps photos of the victims. For killers like Bundy, it’s exceedingly important that they relive the murder over and over again, so trophies and “souvenirs” become almost an essential part of the crime itself. He admitted he destroyed a box of Polaroids of his victims once he came under suspicion, but he almost certainly had stashes of these things in multiple locations. At least, that’s what I think.

    Anyway, I have lots of opinions, and some of them may be completely off the wall. That’s what’s so fun about this discussion!
    Kevin, I have several friends who are planning to purchase your book, and I do have a review lined up. I’m doing my small part from out here in Michigan to make sure your book is the success I know it deserves to be.
    Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings!
    Take care,
    Ted

  44. Hi Ted and all!

    What I like about the Kendall book is simple: No other person had a relationship with Bundy quite like Liz. As such, you get glimpses of Bundy that you might not otherwise ever see. For example, when Ted learns Liz has been to a particular city park with Tina after work, he chides her on the dangers of doing such things alone; the point being, of course, that there are people LIKE HIM out there. And really, the book is full of many little things that actually add to the over-all picture of Bundy during that time. And frankly, if you look at the story she tells about him momentarily attacking her while they traveled down the Yakima, and other important asides, the book becomes rather indispensable if we want a complete picture of Theodore Bundy. At least, that’s been my take on it.

    Of course, the M&A books are both unique and extremely important contributions to the story. Without question, they will be around, I believe, for as long as people are interested in the case.

    I’m a little surprised, Ted, that you didn’t like The Killer Next Door. True, they point to some murders that Ted didn’t commit, but you can find that today too. After all, Ted killed far more than he admitted to, and even at the end, he had no intention of revealing everything. But all in all, I believe Winn and Merrill did an excellent job of researching their subject, and their prose is descriptive, well-formed, and excellent. But again, that’s just my own personal “take” on things.

  45. Hi Kevin and everyone,

    I’m not a huge fan of “The Phantom Prince.” It’s thin in both length and incisive information. Understandably, a lot of it is about the tug and pull between Liz and Bundy regarding their future, and she spends a lot of ink lamenting her alcohol problems. Readers of the book get virtually no new information about the murders, as Liz really wasn’t privy to that part of Bundy’s life. It’s more of a chronicle of their ill-fated relationship than anything else.
    I think the best Bundy book by a long shot is “The Only Living Witness,” and then as a companion piece, “Conversations with a Killer.” These books had the benefit of having Bundy’s pseudo-participation and his somewhat skewed perspective on the crimes. Plus, Michaud is the best writer of the bunch (Michaud wrote the book and Aynesworth did most of the reporting for it.)
    I find the “The Killer Next Door” to be pretty lightweight. Because it was the first of the bunch, it suffers from a bit of shoddy reporting (they attribute several extra murders to Bundy without any solid proof – Sandra Weaver, for example).
    Polly Nelson’s book is just awful, in my view. She seemed in awe of Bundy, if not in love with him, and that’s not a healthy perspective from which to write an objective book about a serial killer.
    Just my two cents…

  46. Claire and Jason

    I supplied the publisher with 30 photos, and, per their request, have given them the page numbers where to place them; plus, I wrote the captions for the pictures. At McFarland’s, it is the author’s responsibility to locate the photos, and this only makes sense, as we writers are the best judge of what pictures need to be located, etc. However, most writers wouldn’t know a great deal about layout, design, and what makes the book appealing visually when it’s ready to be sold, but the folks at the publishing houses do. So all this stuff is left up to them.

    Ann Marie Burr: Sure, Ted may not have killed her, but we must be careful in assuming that he couldn’t have killed her, due to how extremely odd it would be for a 14 year old boy without a car to do such a thing. Remember, as an adult, he committed the unbelievably shocking abduction and murder of Lynda Healy. I mean, who comes into a house of sleeping coeds, snatches one, and oh yes, makes the bed before leaving while also gathering up some of her clothes and a backpack? It doesn’t get much stranger than that. And as you know, there were other, equally strange murders he pulled off; sometimes in front of hundreds, or even thousands of people. Did her kill Ann Marie Burr? I don’t know. Could he have killed her? Yes, I believe so.

    The Phantom Prince: What can I say? It’s a very good and unique book, and as students of the case, I recommend that everyone read it if at all possible. Perhaps a library has a copy near you, or maybe you’ll find one, Jason, at a small bookstore at a reasonable price. Who knows? But it’s a very good read from a very unique perspective, and I quote her a number of times in my book.

  47. Hi Claire.
    Since i have not read Liz’s book ‘The Phantom Prince’, would you know if there is any information in that book which is not contained in the other books on Bundy? I ve wanted to read the book for some time but understandably i was not willing to pay £100 + for a book. I would of thought that Liz Kendalls book would of been the best book on Bundy since she would be able to tell the story of Bundy on a personal level which other writers would not be able to do.

  48. Liz’s book has just rocketed in price on Amazon. I got mine last year and I thought I was paying a hefty £35 but to get it in the UK with shipping, £100 upwards. I thought Liz’s account was very interesting, as she certainly had a very different perspective than anyone else. I was amazed at how much she was involved with WA and UT police. I knew she’d tipped them off but I never knew how much she felt like he was the killer. I did feel let down though at the size of the book. 100 and something pages and a massive price tag. I expected a little bit more.

    Have you had any imput Kevin into the photo’s, design, layout etc?

    There will alawys be a question mark mark over Ann Marie Burr but I think most people are of the consensus that Bundy did not murder her. In my mind I think it very unlikely. He didn’t drive at that time and would not be that familiar with the Cascade Mountains or the like for dumping grounds. The fact her body was never found indicates either burial or a the woods etc. and so I believe another person was responsible. There have been a few killers in WA during that period of time.

  49. At 400 plus Q & A’s, I can’t remember how much we’ve talked about Burr, LOL!!! But yes, it is at least possible he did kill her, and yes, I have information on her killing in either the preface or introduction. I will say this: When I learned of Dr. Holmes dealings with Bundy, and in particular the conversation he had with Ted concerning the Burr killing, it got me to leaning in the direction that he did in fact kill her, as surprising as that sounds. At this point we’ll never know for sure (I guess) but the Dr. Holmes info certainly has that Ring-of-truth to it, as far as I’m concerned.

    An update on the the release date for the book: I emailed the development editor, and she said the July 5, 2009 date being posted on the various internet sites is an estimate. That is, it might be out at that time, but it could also be a little further down the road. Anyway, the editing and correcting is complete, and they’re working on the design of the book, (probably the front and back covers, etc) and the page proofs should follow soon after this. I will let everyone know when this occurs, and publication will be on the heels of this, as it were.

  50. George –
    I am really on the fence when it comes to the murder of Anne Marie Burr. Given Ted’s long career in murder, i cant help but think whether it was practical for Ted to actually kidnap and murder Anne Marie Burr. It is possible that by the time Ted turned 14-15, he did develop odd thinking patterns and maybe toyed with the idea of harming women but i am undecided on whether Ted would of actually had the ‘balls’ to pull it off.
    Kevin, do you discuss the Anne Marie Burr murder in your book at all? (sorry if you have already answered this question before).

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