1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer

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It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.

Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.

Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?

The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.


Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)

Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.

ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?

I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.

From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.

Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.

The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?

The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.

But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.

Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?

Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.

You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?

They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.

I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?

They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.

Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way

How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?

Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.

However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.

Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.

* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.

Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:

On this day..

Possibly related executions:

8,544 thoughts on “1989: Ted Bundy, psycho killer”

  1. So true. For Theodore, the less said, the better, as conversing with the victim would disturb his fantasy-in-action, we could say; and in fact, Bundy admitted that the fantasy of what was to come was always better than the reality of the attack, and talking would have stifled it even more. It just wasn’t Bundy’s way of doing things.

  2. As has been posted, this Bundy tape or transcript is not real, as the author admitted in his footnote.

    If you want to hear audio of Ted’s confessions, head over to YouTube, they have all 3 parts of Ted’s confessions to Bob Keppel, here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoqKMo6uIE8.

    These tapes will give you an idea of Ted’s syntax and manner of speech. He had a degree in psychology and was a law student. He didn’t speak the way the Jaffa document suggests.

    Also, Ted didn’t waste any time debating with his victims. He let his tire iron do all the talking for him.

  4. I can’t speak for this Jaffa fellow, as he certainly has the credentials attached to his name. But what I’m saying, is that this purported tape is bogus, and don’t consider it as part of the standard and accepted material pertaining to Bundy, ’cause it’s not. Mr. Jaffa may believe it’s a true revelatory statement from the killer, and I have no problem with him believing this. However, believing such things does not make it legitimate, and of course, if he were to read this, he’d understand my meaning here.

    And please, let us know what the booklet has to say, after, of course, you’ve had time to digest it’s contents.

    Kevin

  5. If no one’s ever even heard of Bundy tape recording his victims, then I guess this Jaffa guy really is a flake. I’ll see if the booklet explains this in any more detail.

  6. tttar–

    That’s got to be the biggest crock of #@*&^ I’ve ever seen concerning Theodore Robert Bundy. Don’t worry yourself with it, as it’s not legitimate. The person responsible is attempting (poorly, I might add) to make a point, with dialogue that is awash in absurdity. But thanks for sharing it with us anyway.

    Kevin

  7. What else could

    “the following transcript of a recently discovered conversation with one of his “victims” that Ted Bundy had taped. We will call her “Laura,” although that was not her real name.”

    and

    “At this point in the tape there was a sharp scream, followed by a click, indicating that the tape recorder had been turned off.”

    mean, other than that Jaffa was implying he had a real source?

    The footnote just made me think that some paraphrasing was going on, although it does sound like he’s playing games with us.

    Did the professor just have some whacked-out imagination that somehow inspired him to pretend that he had a Bundy tape, while pondering “The Great Sodomy Debate?”

    I actually had this in booklet form several years ago, and think I remember some mention of the New York Times that doesn’t appear on the web page. Here it is:

    http://www.amazon.com/Homosexuality-natural-law-Harry-Jaffa/dp/B0006EXD9K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248372517&sr=8-1

    I just ordered it again, because it’s bugging me. Oops, did I get the only copy? Sorry bout that, but I’ll keep y’all posted… 😉

  8. Hi Sandy–

    The sociopath is certainly like an alien among us, and your perceptions concerning how important control is to such folks is right on target.

    Ted did father a child (a daughter) with a woman by the name of Carol Boone. Check out my comment # 726, if you haven’t already.

    If you have a chance to read my book, please let me know what you think, will you? And stop by this site anytime, as I think we’ll be here for quite some time!

    Take care,

    Kevin

  9. Shane–

    Actually, Larsen’s book is “Bundy: The Deliberate Stranger”.

    And the publication date for my book is September 21, 2009. However, it could be out a bit sooner, or just a little later.

    Kevin

  10. Hi Shane–

    Both of the M&A books are great; as is Wilson & Merrill’s “Ted Bundy: The Killer next Door”. I would also read Richard Larsen’s “Ted Bundy: The Deliberate stranger”, as Larsen knew Bundy before the murders, and the two were “friends” one might say, and so I believe you’ll find it a very good read.

    You should read M&A’s “The Only Living Witness” before reading “Conversations with a Killer”, in my view. TOLV is a very good book, and as you know, they had Ted’s cooperation in writing it.

    I think you’ll really love my book, as I uncovered numerous new bits of information concerning the murders, and I follow the story closely, and perhaps in ways others have not. As such, I really believe you’ll see (and hopefully, everyone!) that my book is indeed a unique look at the murders of Theodore Robert Bundy.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  11. Looking forward to the book. After having read the Lacey Peterson story and working in law enforcement, I am simply amazed that people would put up a collection for such criminally driven people such as Ted Bundy (read as a comment in a previous post) or Scott Peterson. As someone said , think about all the lives this man ruined, as his own family had to contend with the fact that they spawned a monster. I thnk that Ted was driven by the power he had and could manifest over people. He had cruelty……….that is indeed the scariest part. He had cunningness, he hunted his victims like an animal stalking its prey. What I found fascinating after attending a seminar where the guest speaker talked abiut criminal minds, of psychopaths and sociopaths, is their entire disregard of other peoples feelings. She had interviewed OJ and Scott Peterson. They had one thing in common,,,,they both reached out while being interviewed by our guest speaker and eaten off her plate during the interview. That demonstrates two things to me, I am in control, and I care not what you think. No consicience, no concern. I believe the lack of compassion is another trait. Most people try to fix and repair or replace something if they break it, this is another warning sign to the sociopathic behaviour. The mind just thinks differently. They do not see the need. Probably the most selfish minded of all. I guess we can be glad that Ted never truly fathered children to spread the seed…..as apparently Ted’s grandfather did….or do we know if he had any children? Thank yo for such a stimulating thread and going out to buy the book..Thanks to our host for captivating his audience.

  12. Hi tttar–

    I’ll check it out, but to be honest, I’m not looking for any real authenticity here, simply because of all the research I’ve done with the Bundy murders. But I will take a look into it. Like KYGB mentioned, the conversation Bundy had with Bob Keppel about Georgann Hawkins is probably the only killing he described in detail, and even here, there were certain things Ted refused to talk about, which is classic Bundy.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  13. No

    There is no tape, there is no transcript.

    The author admits as much in the footnote you referenced.

    To whit,
    Quote on

    2 This transcript was composed on the same principle as the speeches in Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War, attributing to each speaker the words that fit his character and the circumstances in which he spoke.

    Quote off

    It’s Jaffa “attributing to each speaker the words that fit his character and the circumstances in which he spoke”, as he admits in his footnote. He made up the dialogue.

    And it ain’t kosher in the context in which he wrote this piece.

    The History of the Peloponnesian War was a long time ago. Bundy’s murders are still relatively fresh in history. Jaffa didn’t clearly label this as supposition in the main body of the piece. He should have done so.

  14. It’s at that link, Shane.

    Here’s where Harry V Jaffa can be reached:

    http://www.claremont.org/scholars/id.3/scholar.asp

    It must be based on a real tape, or transcript of a tape. I don’t think he made this up. I see he’s not a tabloid writer and I’m sorry I assumed he was a bozo. But I wish he’d just given it to us in straight, quotable form, and provided the source.

    I’m sure Sullivan must have come across this during his research and will fill us all in. 🙂 (Teasing a little bit, here, but there’s nothing funny about what Bundy did.)

  15. There is nothing existant that I’ve heard that goes to that level of dialogue during a murder. The closest I’ve heard of this is Bundy quoting a comment Georgann Hawkins made to him about thinking she was going to tutor him for a Spanish test when she came to after her abduction in the Keppel confession tapes.

    I’m far from an expert on this case. But I think it’s pretty safe to say that Ted did NOT quote a Supreme Court Justice or talk about religious philosophy when he was in one of his killing frenzies.

    It’s also real low of that writer to make up dialogue for that situation and print it like it was real.

  16. what “transcript” with “laura” is tttar refering to? i know i must seem ill-informed

  17. wow im so excited to read this, ive been a true crime afficinado for a while now and bundy is uber-interesting to me (and the rest of us apparently) im not sure why he is so galvanizing but he certainly is. i have only read the stranger beside me so i was wondering, particularly from you kevin, what other books i should read as a primer for your book? more specifically which of the M&A books should i get first? if i was expecting to read accounts of murders would that be an accurate expectation? no one has ever used the records to compile a true accounting of his movements and crimes and im so excited, from what ive read on this thread (i could only get to about 400 before i started skipping) your book will strip away the varnish that ted and the media has put on him to reveal the real sick nature of his crimes, and the twisted nature of his aberrations what is the publish date?? im sure its listed here but im too lazy to weed thru it all

  18. What do you know about this well-reasoned and grammatical (considering the situation) “transcript” Bundy taped with “Laura,” just before he killed her?

    http://famguardian.org/Subjects/SexualImmorality/Homosexuality/HomoAndNaturalLaw.htm

    See footnote 2 for some weasel words on how some bozo saw fit to put words into their mouths, and yet still considers this to be a transcript.

    Who was she, where can I find the actual words said, and is there an extant recording, or others made by Bundy?

  19. Hi Laura–

    Sometimes we’ll ’round a corner in life, and suddenly, encounter something strange indeed! It will defy explanation, and go against everything within the bounds of reason; but there it is anyway! It would happen to me quite often in my former line of work, but not so much now. Still, it’s interesting to observe. I am, of course, referring to what sparked your comment above, and I understand your reaction exactly.

    See ya,

    Kevin

  20. Im somewhat amazed anybody could say they are in love with a serial killer, especially a monster like Bundy. Maybe rather than thinking about him you could try to think of all those poor families out there with girls taken in the prime of their youth all because this guy wanted to satisfy himself with no thought for anybody else. Or in the case of Kim Leach a CHILD taken from her family. Those folk having to live with the knowledge not only were their children/siblings etc killed but their bodies used in all kinds of unfathomable ways to satisfy himself. He’s disgusting, his crimes are disgusing and I find it amazing given what we know about Bundy anybody could say he was a good person “deep down”. I hope truly you think of his victims rather than the person that Bundy and the media potrayed him to be.

  21. If, as you say, that “deep down” Ted was a good person, I wonder what a bad person would look like?

    For the film, you might try the State Archives of Florida.

  22. Hi! Wow,your like the luckiest person ever to have bought home Ted;s stuff. Im seriously in love woth Ted.I love him so much,even though so people may think its a bit werid.Yes,I know what he did was wrong,but i truly believe that deep down he was a good person.Does anyone else find him so acttractive like I do? Lol,well rest in peace Ted.Your alway sin my heart.XOXO

    BTW: Do you know if i can find the video of ted getting angry in court of the Leach trial ? Thanks.

  23. Hello everyone–

    George, I believe Bundy received most of his escape loot from Washington State donations for his defense fund. What gets me, is that he had access to the money. I’m surprised the authorities didn’t take it from him, and place it in some type of fund with his attorney or something of that nature. It could also be true that (and I’m guessing here) Bundy may have located a little money in the apartment inside the jail from which he escaped. I mean, having come down through an above crawl space, he found clothes, so there is at least a chance he also stumbled upon money as well. I’m sure it wouldn’t have been a great deal of cash, but there could have been something laying around. So who knows. But the majority came from his soon-to-be- departing supporters in WA.

  24. Hey guys-
    Thanks for the discussion,Kevin.As always,it’s a pleasure.Bundy would have been sitting on Death Row in the mid 80s reading his beloved Tacoma area newspapers.The Riverman wouldnt have been the only topic that interested him.After all,the hunt for Mengele was in full swing and the life and times of the Angel of Death rivaled even those of Theodore Robert Bundy in notoriety.Sure he read about them.Ted always scouted the competition.
    You were discussing Carole Boone earlier.Always interested me where Ted got that chunk of change for his escape.I have theories.(i wonder,did Mike Fisher share his?)One could speculate(after all Ted loved to)that upon after hearing of any plans of trading confessions for time,Carol was surely horrified for obvious reasons.But aside from the plainly obvious,if Ted is guilty then anyone who aided him in his escape has the blood of the Florida dead on their hands,no?

  25. Hi Laura–

    I don’t know who may have attempted to contact Carol Boone, or if anyone has ever been successful in tracking her down. I’ve heard she’d changed her name in an attempt to avoid the media, and I didn’t encounter anything about her in my research. Part of the reason, however, is no doubt due to my having no desire to locate her in the first place. I do give Carol some very brief page-time in the book, but truthfully, I wasn’t very interested in her part of the story because it had little to do with what I was doing in the book. On a personal level, I couldn’t imagine why Ms. Boone was with Bundy anyway, seeing that everyone else above ground (I’m being a little funny here) understood by this time that Ted was guilty. As such, what could she offer me in any way that I could use for the book? But again, those are my personal feelings. I also feel very sorry for Carol and her daughter, to be sure, and yes, the daughter is Ted’s. What a sad situation for the kid. I hope she is able to get past it all by realizing that, had her dad been in his “right mind” these things would never have occurred. And just think, in her own way, she’s the last of Bundy’s victims!

    Take care,

    Kevin

  26. This is great I am a bit of a lurker I keep checking daily but I rarely post however I just wanted to say I cannot wait for the book to come out and I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and the direction its taken your time is really appreciated. What I wonder Kevin is had you ever tried to locate carol anne boone, or has anybody else for that matter? I understand she wants privacy etc but she did court the media so to speak in defence of ted I find it amazing she just disappeared after all these years never a word said. I think because we know so much about his case most books cover a lot of the same ground, surely if anybody could make an excellent book it would be her. I just find that whole aspect of his life fascinating, what happened, why did she disappear did she honestly believe he was innocent and was that really his daughter. That side to me is just as interesting as anything else that went on before and just another fascinating aspect to the whole diabolical story.

  27. Okay. Bundy vs. Mengela, and the possible differences between the two men: Although a bit of speculation must be involved here, I’ll go for it!!!

    First, you’re right, George, the “total control” aspect would have been a “turn on” for Ted, although he may (and that’s a BIG ‘may’) have been put off by Mengele’s array of victims: children, old people, etc. After all, Bundy wanted to murder and sexually assault women his own age, as well as young girls. This is the beginning and ending of his perverted fantasy world, and it was from this inner life that he developed into the killer of coeds and girls who were little more than children. However, if Bundy could have been around the Angel-of-death for awhile, who knows, perhaps his tasts would have changed a bit.

    The same, I believe, goes for Mengele: He may have found Bundy’s choice of victims (and the reason he was killing them) as rather distasteful, as they weren’t within the bounds of National Socialism; i.e. Bundy killed for the sheer enjoyment of it, and not for reasons (this sounds insane even saying it!) having to do with one’s country, as diabolically perverted as that sounds. But Mengele would no doubt have respected him for being able to carry such things out without flinching, as it were, for he understood just how many Germans were out there who found the harming and killing of innocent human beings as a terrible thing indeed; for there were hordes of Germans who couldn’t and wouldn’t do what was being done by the monster Mengele. Can you imagine what Erwin Rommel would have thought of such things? My God, he would probably like to kill Memgele himself!

    Anyway, they both are monsters, and who knows, perhaps somewhere (if one is inclined to believe in life after death) they’re having a heated conversation even now.. And yes, “heated” was a pun intended!

  28. Hi KYGB–

    Actually, everything pertaining to the case (document wise) is pretty much open, except for the archives associated with the Colorado folks (AG’s office, county atty,etc) where there is still much “red tape” due to Bundy’s crimes being sex related, as they have very stringent stipulations on the release of material pertaining to sexual assaults; and it doesn’t matter if the victims of said assaults are deceased. But even here, it didn’t matter, as I had a number of sources beyond this to work with.

    I do, however, believe the passage of time (in certain cases) allowed some people to be more forthright with me as they spoke of these now long ago crimes. But even here, they were mindful of the victims family members who are still living, as they carry with them both pain and memory that does not feel like it’s the distant past. And as a writer, I very much appreciated the concern these former investigators, medical people, and others felt, as they were “looking out” for these folks.

    Take care,

    Kevin

  29. Kevin, meant to ask this when I first found the site. One of the reasons I think the time is right for your work is that there has been the 30 years since the crimes. Enough years have gone by so information on the case can be released.

    Did many sources say they couldn’t release information becuase this was a criminal case or were most of then pretty open due to the passage of time?

  30. Hi George–

    Yes, I saw Downfall a couple of years ago, and it is quite good! Very authentic looking. Say, if you haven’t yet, and if you ever have the chance, visit the city of Berlin, as it (at least in 1972, when I was there) had many buildings still standing pertaining to the war. Even the German High Command HQ ( the Bendlerblock) is still standing and is intact.

    I’ll have a bit more to say about Mengele and Ted later!

  31. hey guys-
    I thought about whatever thoughts Ted might have had about Mengele.Mengele would interest Ted because of his unfettered access to,and control of,HIS VICTIMS.No need to worry about the troublesome coppers in that scenario.Indeed,recall him rhapsodizing about having access to a private crematorioum in TOLW.Norman says he was fascinated by Nazi crimes.
    But so far as literature ,Bundy loved CLAVELL,especially SHOGUN.He also suggestively compared himself to the title character in KING RAT,also by CLAVELL.
    By the way Kevin,recently saw the WW2 film DOWNFALL,a german film about the final days in the bunker.Much recommended.

  32. I spoke to several of Ted’s friends and coworkers in WA, but was unable to locate 2 of his friends from the rooming house at 565 First Avenue; and these were the only two “friends” of Bundy in all of Utah that I wanted to have a word with. Everyone else I was busy tracking down in the Beehive State were either cops or attorneys.

  34. Yes, Ted started having a bit of a problem towards the end of his time in WA ( before he departed for Utah), but rather than talk about it now, I need to wait until the book is published and I can answer additional questions at that time. But yes, certain things were starting to surface, one might say, and it got the attention of some folks.

  35. I’ve always wondered about that, Kevin. Did you find other evidence of Ted behaving like the weirdo he was? It’s hard for me to accept that Ted in WA was seen as such an all-American boy when he harbored such bizarre thoughts and fantasies. There are few stories of this nature, but I have to believe more people saw Ted as the bizarre bugger he was and just kind of shuddered and went on.

    There’s no way he could have kept his inner self hidden all the time.

  36. You’re correct, Vidor, and I spoke to Bob Keppel about this. He told me that yes, perhaps it wasn’t the killer’s name, but that, and knowing he drove a beige or light brown VW, was all they had. FWi: It wasn’t long after this that one of Bundy’s professors at the University of Washington called Keppel and warned him about a weird guy named Ted in his class who drives a Volkswagon…anyway, an interesting point.

  37. Regarding posts #687 and #688, and Ted’s use of his “real name” at Lake Sam–I’ve always wondered why so many people at the time assumed that “Ted” actually was the killer’s name or had any meaning. Obviously there was no reason to believe his real name wasn’t Bill or Bob or Steve…

  38. Hi KYGB–

    Although I think Bundy probably killed Valenzuela, if he did, then he certainly murdered this other female as well. According to the reports, they were separated by only a hundred or so feet, and both women were placed in the ground beside logs, or portions of fallen trees. So it’s my belief that they share a common killer. It is also true that a man by the name of Warren Leslie Forrest was attacking women in that area, so, it’s at least possible, he’s responsible for their deaths. I didn’t follow up on any possible confessions Forrest may have made during the intervening years, but if he’d admitted anything substantial, I’m sure we’d have heard about it. And it’s also true that Bundy confessed to killing at least 11 in Washington State, yet he’s only admitted to 8 by name. So who knows?

    Yeah, the tossing out of everything happened when he killed Georgann Hawkins. As I recall, he then attempted to retrieve everything the next day, but couldn’t find everything; and apparently, he’d done this type of thing before, and was sorry each time afterward because it meant he’d have to keep purchasing these things over and over again. Anyway, I either read in Keppel’s book (or he told me, I can’t remember) that one of his search teams came up with a rusty crowbar in a field along the route Bundy described, and of course, I think it’s probably Ted’s.

    A note: I doubt if Bundy was throwing any items away after the Hawkins abduction; and certainly not after his arrival in Utah, as he was exceedingly confident of always beating the authorities at their own game by now. Little did he know that he’d already planted the seeds of his own destruction at Lake Sammamish!

    See ya,

    Kevin

  39. That is a good analogy. Ted was a kid who visited multiple candy stores. He went nuts in several locations.
    Mengele was in Brasil & Argentina in his travels in SA. He spent most of his time in Paraguay on a large ranch. The property was chosen because it had a very high point on it. Mengele erected an observation post and spent a lot of time up there. The natives in the area called Mengele “The Man in the Tower”. He spent hours up there, watching for the time he knew his accusers would come to arrest him. He never got brought to justice, but his last years were hardly peaceful.
    Kevin, would the female was found with Carol Valenzuela be a part of Ted’s body count of 36 victims. Have you put a name to all his victimes or how have you been able to handle that one?
    Also, on one of his confession tapes, Bundy speaks of being so upset by one of his murders, he tossed the evidence out of the car. iIve always felt this is Bundy’s way of ‘playing’ with the detectives. Sending them on wild goose chases as a tiny bit of revenge. Do you know whereof I speak?

  40. Hi Cindy!

    Yes, there was another body found, I believe, about a hundred feet from Carol, and no, I don’t think she was ever identified. Such as a shame too, as she’s somebody’s daughter, or sister, or perhaps even mother! Had identification occurred, at least the family could begin the real grieving process, but instead, they are left to wonder (even now, after 35 years) just what happened to their loved one. A really bad situation that has been repeated in other lives more often than people might think.

    The Larsen book is a good one indeed. And yes, I too read about the clothes in the book, and discovered the report about these clothes in the hundreds of police reports I obtained from Washington State while doing my research. In fact, during the Washington investigation alone, there were numerous “finds” of female clothing, but nothing ever came of it , as I recall.
    We must remember, Bundy made it a habit of using garbage bags (see photo in above interview) to dispose of his victims clothing. He never placed these bags anywhere near to where he dumped the bodies, and at this period in his career as a murderer, he made very few mistakes. Could he have gotten sloppy and discarded some bagged clothes in that fashion so close to the scene? It’s possible, but, (as far as I’m concerned) very unlikely. Bundy was just very careful about not leaving any evidence behind for authorities to discover. This wouldn’t be the case down the road, mind you, but it was true in WA.

    And thanks, Cindy, for the interest in my book! Let me know what you think after reading it, will you?

    Take care,

    Kevin

  41. Hi George–

    Yes, Mengale was a dark figure indeed! Every bit as vile as Theodore, but apparently his diabolical side was cut short by the end of the war. As he sat in those dingy Argentina cafes, living a life he hadn’t chosen for himself (he’d never intentionally headed to Argentina on his own, for he loved his native Germany) he no doubt felt like HE WAS THE VICTIM. And while he escaped justice in this life, as a retired minister, I’m certain he’s been serving an unending sentence since he left his body!

    And now, to Theodore: (BTW: I use ‘the kid in the candy store’ phrase pertaining to Utah!) Anyway, as I see it, Bundy’s real awakening as to his ‘plight’ of being forever alienated from family, a civilized functioning within a society, and all that he once considered ‘normal’ (being married, being a lawyer, etc) occurred in Ann Arbor and was he really understood these things were now gone forever. He knew his existence was never going to be the same. That said, his life was on a particular course (one of unabated murder) and two factors were as sure as knowing the sun would rise in the morning, and these were: First, he he loved killing above all things, and had no intention of stopping; and Secondly, he was undergoing a melt down in his personality that he couldn’t control. I delve deeply into these things in the book, so I can’t go into them in a big way now.

    I wonder what Bundy thought about Mengale? Just a thought!

    Take care,

    Kevin

  42. Hi Kevin;
    I am so excited to read your book, I cannot wait for it to come out! In the 20 years since Ted’s execution there’s been a real void out there for new info, and I can’t wait to see what you’ve discovered.
    While I wait for your book to come out, I am rereading the other Bundy books, right now it’s Richard Larsen’s book. Just two quick questions for you…Larsen mentions that another female was found with Carol Valenzuela. Do we know who this other female was, was she ever identified? Larsen also mentions a father and son discovering a box and a bag of ladies’ clothing close to the area where some of the victims were discovered. They reported the find to the police, but nothing was ever done. I know it’s pure speculation at this point, but do you believe those were Bundy’s victims’ clothes? It seems too coincidental not to be, and I can’t help but think of potential evidence those clothes might have shown.

    Thanks for your time and again, I can’t wait for your book!

    Cindy

  43. hey guys-
    Got a few things here.Art Norman has said that Ted was intrigued by the Nazis,and specifically concentration camps.It occurred to me that Josef Mengale was perhaps the most sadistic example,or symbolic executioner of the Holocaust.
    In one way even more than Hitler himself,because he put theory into practice.
    Yet,when the war ended,Mengale spent 35 years running from one country to another,from one safe house to the next.Hunted,one suspects,like his undeserving victims.But the interesting thing,to me,is that this man(under whatever alias)did no one any harm after the war.Nor is there any record of any crime before the war.
    Lets get to Bundy.IMO when he got to the Omni in Atlanta,awaiting his trip to Tallahassee,yes he was deflated,as he says in M+A.Because what he had completely and utterly left behind was his own identity.No more girlfriends,no longer a wronged law student,a criminal defendant,a western media darling.Now your a shadow.
    Mengale was an awful man.As awful as Bundy.But his motivations were different.They were not overtly sexual,seemed instead to be largely ideological. Mengale nourished his resentments in Argentinian cafes to be sure,but he did nothing to endanger his freedom and he never bothered anyone.With the end of the Third Reich came the end of the mythical Angel of Death.He withered in South America,fearing the fate of Eichmann.

    In contrast,and I am not being flippant here,Ted was a kid in a candy store when he arrived at F.S.U. The factors that had even remotely held him in check in the past were gone.He no longer had to answer to any segment of society whatsoever(say Liz or Louise for example)so there he goes.What does it take,2 weeks?I do not know if the Florida crimes were his most atrocious ,but Ido think the expression of such are the closest we will get to knowing the real Ted,in conjunction of course with his blowfish performance in trial.
    In closing,I don’t think thebutcher of Auschwitz kills anyone without an ideological “shield’. Our “friend”he does not stop until he is caught or until he is dead.

  44. Hi Claudia,

    I remember my contract stating how the publisher has the right to sell the book in various ways: as a book, in electronic form, and through subsidiary sales, so this Kindle thing is probably in the mix somewhere, I would think. However, you can fire a quick e-mail off to McFarland (just check their website for the proper department) or telephone them, and get an answer right away. If you find anything out, pass it along to everyone here, will you?

    Thanks, Claudia, and have a nice day.

    Kevin

  45. Hi Kevin,

    Do you know whether your book will be available for download on Kindle?

    Thanks,
    Claudia

  46. Hi Courtney–

    As you know, I do want to see all the sites pertaining to the Bundy case, of course. However, coming out this year will depend on possible book signings, and if that happens, perhaps some newspaper and/or radio interviews while I’m there (if any of the media wants to jump on board, lol!). So I’ll just have to see how all of this works out. Who knows? I will, however, keep everyone posted here about these things, and yes, anyone wanting to make it out to WA is certainly welcome by me. I think it would be great.

    See ya,

    Kevin

  47. Hey Kevin,

    Do you know when you might be making a trip out to Washington this year? And exactly what do you plan on doing? Visiting all the sites or what? It’s interesting and I’d like to go as well!

    Thanks again for your time and patience on this forum. 🙂

    Courtney

  48. Hi Mark–

    I was thinking it was Gig Harbor. Anyway, no big deal.

    Yeah, if you can photograph some of those places that would be great. If you do, let us know, and we can figure the best way for everybody to see them. I’m rather PC and web challenged, so if nothing else, perhaps you can contact the Headsman and get my email address, and send them along to me.

    There is also a chance I’ll be coming out there later this year, but this is preliminary, at best. I will say that a couple of newspapers in Washington state will be reviewing the book, as will two papers in Utah. I’m certain there will be others, but I haven’t made any contacts beyond those two states yet, so we’ll see. It all depends….

    Talk to you soon,

    Kevin

  49. I previously posted some wrong information about where Bundy’s cabin or A-Frame was. It is actually just past Gig Harbor across the Narrows bridge. I believe the property is still owned by the family, Bundy’s sister I believe. Those that have speculated about the Lake Sam connection and the cabin/ A-frame have to be wrong as the drive from Lake Sam to the A-Frame is well over an hour 1-way. The cabin referenced in the confession was an older vacant one. I believe the exact area is now a freeway off-ramp. Kevin I still would like to get out and photo all these sights and possibly send or post at some point this summer. Driving by the A-Frame on Sunday sure raised the hair on the back of my neck.

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