Qu’est-ce que c’est?
It was 20 years today that Ted Bundy, the signature sexual psychopath in a golden age of serial killers,* rode the lightning in Florida’s Starke Prison.
Executed Today is pleased to mark the occasion with a conversation with Louisville crime writer Kevin M. Sullivan, author of a forthcoming2009 book on Ted Bundy … and a man who knows how the world looks from inside Bundy’s ski mask.
Ted Bundy is obviously one of the most iconic, written-about serial killers in history. Why a book about Ted Bundy? What’s the untold story that you set out to uncover?
The desire, or drive, if you will, to write an article about Ted Bundy and then create a 120,000 plus word book about the murders, was born out of my crossing paths with his infamous murder kit. Had Jerry Thompson [a key detective on the Bundy case -ed.] left Bundy’s stuff in Utah that May of 2005, well, it would have been an enjoyable meeting with the former detective, but I’m certain it would have all ended quietly there. Indeed, I doubt if I’d even considered writing an article for Snitch [a now-defunct crime magazine -ed.], much less a book about the killings. But it was having all that stuff in my hands, and in my home, and then being given one of the Glad bags from Ted’s VW that made it very real (or surreal) to me, and from this, a hunger to find out more about the crimes led me forward.
Ted Bundy’s gear, right where you want it — image courtesy of Kevin M. Sullivan. (Check the 1975 police photo for confirmation.)
Believe me, in a thousand years, I never would have expected such a thing to ever come my way. I can’t think of anything more odd or surreal.
ET: You mentioned that you think you’ve been able to answer some longstanding questions about Bundy’s career. Can you give us some hints? What don’t people know about Ted Bundy that they ought to know?
I must admit, when I first decided to write a book about the crimes, I wasn’t sure what I’d find, so the first thing I had to do was read every book ever written about Bundy, which took the better portion of three or four months.
From this I took a trip to Utah to again meet with Thompson and check out the sites pertaining to Bundy and the murders in that state. Next came the acquisition of case files from the various states and the tracking down of those detectives who participated in the hunt for the elusive killer.
Now, no one could have been more surprised than me to begin discovering what I was discovering about some of these murders. But as I kept hunting down the right people and the right documents, I was able to confirm these “finds” at every turn. And while I cannot reveal everything here, It’s all in the book in great detail. Indeed, you could say that my book is not a biography in the truest sense, but rather an in-depth look at Bundy and the murders from a vantage point that is quite unique. I wish I could delve further into these things now , but I must wait until it’s published.
The Bundy story has a magnetic villain and a host of victims … was there a hero? Was there a lesson?
The real heroes in this story are the detectives who worked day and night for years to bring Ted Bundy to justice. And if there’s a lesson to be learned from all of this, it is this: It doesn’t matter how handsome or articulate a person might be, or how nicely they smile at you, for behind it all, there could reside the most diabolical person you’ll ever meet! We need to remember this.
But how can you act on that lesson without living in a continual state of terror? Bundy strikes me as so far outside our normal experience, even the normal experience of criminality, that I’m inclined to wonder how much can be generalized from him.
Actually, (and I might say, thank God here!) people as “successful” as Ted Bundy don’t come our way very often. I mean, the guy was a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington, had influential friends, a law student, and certainly appeared to be going places in life. Some were even quite envious of his ascension in life. However, it was all a well-placed mask that he wore to cover his true feelings and intentions. On the outside he was perfect, but on the inside a monster. He just didn’t fit the mold we’re used to when we think of a terrible killer, does he?
Now, there are those among us — sociopaths — who can kill or do all manner of terrible things in life and maintain the nicest smile upon their faces, but again, just beneath the surface ticks the heart of a monster, or predator, or what ever you might want to call them. Having said that, I’m not a suspicious person by nature, and so I personally judge people by their outward appearance until shown otherwise. Still, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to see the “real” individual behind the person they present to us on a daily basis.
You worked with case detectives in researching your book. How did the Ted Bundy case affect the way law enforcement has subsequently investigated serial killers? If they had it to do over again, what’s the thing you think they’d have done differently?
They all agree that today, DNA would play a part of the investigation that wasn’t available then. However, in the early portion of the murders, Bundy made few if any mistakes, as he had done his homework so as to avoid detection. As such, even this wouldn’t be a panacea when it came to a very mobile killer like Bundy who understood the very real limitations sometimes surrounding homicide investigations.
I can’t help but ask about these detectives as human beings, too. Clearly they’re in a position to deal with the heart of darkness in the human soul day in and day out and still lead normal lives … is a Ted Bundy the kind of killer that haunts or scars investigators years later, or is this something most can set aside as all in a day’s work?
They are, first of all, very nice people. And you can’t be around them (either in person, or through numerous phone calls or emails) for very long before you understand how dedicated they are (or were) in their careers as police officers. They are honorable people, with a clear sense of duty, and without such people, we, as a society, would be in dire circumstances indeed.
Even before Bundy came along, these men were veteran investigators who had seen many bad things in life, so they carried a toughness which allowed them to deal with the situations they came up against in a professional manner. That said, I remember Jerry Thompson telling me how he looked at Ted one day and thought how much he reminded him of a monster, or a vampire of sorts. And my book contains a number of exchanges between the two men (including a chilling telephone call) which demonstrate why he felt this way
How about for you, as a writer — was there a frightening, creepy, traumatic moment in your research that really shook you? Was there an emotional toll for you?
Absolutely. But the degree of “shock”, if you will, depends (at least for me) on what I know as I first delve into each murder. In the Bundy cases I had a general knowledge of how Bundy killed, so there wasn’t a great deal that caught me by surprise, as it were. Even so, as a writer, you tend to get to know the victims very well through the case files, their family members or friends, and so on. Hence, I’ll continue to carry with me many of the details of their lives and deaths for the remainder of my life. And so, lasting changes are a part of what we do.
However, I did a story a few years back about a 16 year old girl who was horribly murdered here in Kentucky, and this case did cause me to wake up in the night in a cold sweat. Perhaps it was because I have a daughter that was, at the time, only a few years younger than this girl, and that some of what transpired did catch me off guard, so to speak, as I began uncovering just what had happened to this very nice kid.
Watch for Kevin M. Sullivan’s forthcoming The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History from McFarland in summer or fall of 2009.
* In fact, the term “serial killer” was coined in the 1970’s by FBI profiler Robert Ressler, as an improvement on the sometimes inaccurate category of “stranger killer”.
Additional Bundy resources from the enormous comment thread:
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Video of Wildwood Inn, where Bundy abducted Caryn Campbell in 1975. (From Timmy)
Thread commenter Richard A. Duffus wrote a 2012 book about Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy: The Felon’s Hook (Excerpt | Image from the book)
Video interview of Kevin M. Sullivan (From Richard A. Duffus)
On this day..
- 1522: Didrik Slagheck
- 1887: Georgette and Sylvain Thomas, guillotine couples act
- 1981: Not Kim Dae-jung, South Korean president and Nobel laureate
- 1641: Not Manuel de Gerrit de Reus, chosen by lot, saved by hemp
- 1970: Three in Baghdad
- 1538: Anna Jansz, Anabaptist
- 1963: Lazhar Chraiti and nine other Tunisian conspirators
- 1846: Elizabeth Van Valkenburgh, in her rocking chair
- 1936: Allen Foster, who fought Joe Louis
- 1911: Shusui Kotoku and ten other anarchists
- Daily Double: The High Treason Incident
- 1938: Han Fuqu, Koumintang general
- 1992: Ricky Ray Rector, "a date which ought to live in infamy for the Democratic Party"
Kevin, i have not long finished reading your book. And in all honesty, cannot praise it highly enough. True to your word, “The Bundy Murder’s” is packed with new information regarding Ted Bundy and his crimes. This is exactly the kind of information many of us have been seeking, after reading countless other works on this ever-fascinating subject. Those questions that still remain are ones in which only Ted himself could answer, and he is long gone, having taken many secrets with him to his grave, which leaves us only to ponder and speculate upon them. Other than the fact that i found this book totally engrossing from the first page to the very last, i would also like to mention that it was beautifully written. As a writer, Kevin has the creative ability to know exactly which words to use to grab you by the heart (or the throat, as the case may be). And told with such sensitivity and empathy, i found i was moved to tears several times during the course of reading. Very witty at times too, with some much needed humour thrown in, which helped balance out the horror of it all (but only just, lol). You don’t need me to say this, but you are one, fine writer, Kevin!
Just thought i would add that during the course of reading, my thoughts and feelings towards this diabolical excuse for a human being, have somewhat shifted. No matter the reasons why he may have become a sociopath, Ted Bundy, once he crossed the line and began acting out his sickening and depraved fantasies, deserves no pity or compassion, but only contempt and condemnation. This shell of a man was more evil and cunning than i ever could have imagined, and thanks to Kevin’s book i see that now.
Hi All…
Many of you know that I’m now a contributing writer at In Cold Blog. Well, my first piece, now up at their site, has to do with meeting Jerry Thompson, viewing and handling Ted Bundy’s murder kit; an event which ultimately led to my decision to write THE BUNDY MURDERS.
Anyway, I mention it only for those who are interested.
Loraine, you don’t have to explain your reasons to anyone here, but i really appreciate you doing so. Thank You! I am glad you have chosen to stick around.
Kevin is totally right, of course, This is an open forum to discuss anything TB related (with sensitivity), and no-one has the right to come on here and start dictating which direction we SHOULD all be taking when discussing things. No offense, bart.
Lorraine, thanks a lot for ducking back in here. I never got a chance to thank you for your posts about your experiences. The post about the library incident literally made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. It was well-written and very heartfelt.
We can all understand that you have a touch of “TBO”. we all get it from time to time. Hopefully, it’s just a mild case.
Thanks again for the great posts and drop back in when you feel like it. We’ll leave the light on for ya!
One more thing…. I also do not mean to discourage any questions that anyone might have for me. If there is anything anyone wants to ask about any of the information in my posts, I will be happy to answer as best I can.
Lorraine
Hi all,
Well, lol, here I am again, sooner than I planned. I still intend to take a break from active posting, but after reading some of the comments after mine, I felt the need to return to make sure that my reasons for doing so are not misunderstood.
First of all, Monica, you have no reason at all to apoligize to me! Your posts have been very much in keeping with the topic of the thread, sensitive to all readers (including myself) and, in my opinion, valuable input. My posts, which have focused on my friendship with Kathy Parks and the experiences the night of her disappearance took the thread in a slightly different direction. That does not mean that I expect all comments (or responses to my comments) to focus on that subject matter, its simply my way of contributing to the site in a way that I am most comfortable. Certainly, I have opinions on many of the things brought up throughout the thread, but I have felt most comfortable speaking about the things that I know through the experiences that I had.
My reasons for taking a break are personal. Point blank, to Bart, while I respect and encourage your desire to honor the women and girls whose lives were taken by Bundy, there is a comment that you made that made me very uncomfortable.
You suggested that somehow you might “return my personal photos” of Kathy which I loaned to Christy some 36 years ago and never got back. While your intention there was probably to offer to “help” me, the closeness and loss of anonymity implied by such an idea made me very uneasy. The only way I can remain comfortable here is by demanding that certain boundaries be respected. Hopefully, you can understand my reasons for needing to keep a “safe distance”.
I am taking a break because some of the fear and uneasiness was creeping back in. I realize that I am overly sensitive (perhaps overprotective) in certain areas, due to my experiences, but it is this cautionary approach to life that has allowed me to function in this world for the past 36 years. Its how “things work for me”, and its not likely that I will change at any point. I am sure I will be back, posting when I feel that I have something to add, and I will certainly be reading the posts made by the rest of you.
I have felt welcome here, and thank you all for the warmth I have felt since I began participating. Please don’t take my temporary “backing off” as anything more than a temporary breather due to my TBO (Ted Bundy Overload)!!
Lorraine
Hi Gray–
I would certainly think so. But as they’ve never surfaced, any photographs of him are probably tucked neatly away in a family drawer or attic.
Kevin, I’ve thought of this at times, never seen it mentioned: Are there any existing photos of Grandfather Cowell?
Come, on folks.
I really never meant to change the topic of this forum.
Maybe because of my poor English language skills plus my tendency to speak my mind far too frequently – I was misunderstood like someone trying to take control of what people say here.
But it was never my goal.
It was TD who was “control obssesed” type of guy – not me.
There is literally endless space on Internet – and I can do my project anywhere else in virtual world.
Sorry for all the mess here, guys.
I am gonna transform into “lurker” for a while.
Bye
bart–
With all due respect (or perhaps not) don’t think for a minute that you’re going to come along and begin dictating what this forum is going to be. You say you have something you’d like to do pertaining to the victims. Well, fine, now go and do that. But don’t try to change what people are wanting to ask or talk about because it doesn’t “fit” with you. This forum is about Ted Bundy, the murders, the victims, the detectives who worked the case, and ANY AND ALL THINGS connected to this particular case. So please, cease immediately trying to control people to bring about you own personal desires.
As a woman, my interest in TB stems mostly from the fear that I could have easily been one of the victims. These women were leading their lives in the same vein I did at their age. I’m a “stewardess” like one of his suspected targets and early in my career lived in a crash pad with other co workers too. It’s my affinity with them that makes me want to know how does society recognise someone like TB before the number rises to 36+ ? The fact that TB was attractive and a law student matters mostly because the mask he wore was so much more approachable than other serial killers’ therefore more dangerous.
I’m ashamed to honestly admit that although I was intrigued by the Green River Killer’s ability to remain undetected for so many years my interest was not as peaked as in TB because his victims were leading “high risk” lives. That’s horrible to say and believe me I know their lives were worth as much as a coeds and their families’ suffering was just as painful. But the percentage of risk that comes from that lifestyle is so high that it dims the shock. I hope my honesty isn’t sounding callous because I truly feel for these women, no one should have their lives cut short and ended in such a traumatic form.
I really hope i haven’t contributed to Lorraine’s discomfort on this forum, as i know that most of my posts have been centered around TB, and not his victims. I feel awful now.
Hi Lorraine! I was beginning to wonder where you had gone, and if all was okay with you. I doubt anyone thinks for a minute that participating on here is easy for you. Whether you decide to participate again another time, or give it a miss, i (and i’m sure others feel the same) wish you the very best!
Gosh, I must admit I am probably the first to blame for Loraine’s discomfort here and her decision to leave us (temporararily I hope).
as I was literally bombarding Lorraine with Kathy-related posts.
Have my kind apologies Lorraine, Kevin and all folks here.
As ussualy – the better I want – the worse the effects I bring about 🙁
Looks like I need to re-think or even quit my project while I may unintentionally hurt many many people.
But frankly speaking, that this might be not only my fault as this forum so strongly and obssesively focused on murderer.
Don’t you think it is time to establish other forum – tottally devoted to the loved one gone – with no slightelst reference to the perpatrator?
See you..
Bart
Hi,
As for Ted’s question just to support Kevin answer.
I know my little research means nothing compared to Kevin investigation – he’s a light years ahead of me plus what I want to do is a compeletely different thing – I want to sift backgrounds and let’s say a “pre-victim” lives of the loved ones who disappeared – excluding any reference to the fatal day, fatal encounter and its probable detailed scenario while I was researched 1000 times.
I prefer to pay them good tribute bring the lives of those girls and women to the light and to world as a whole.
That’s my way of avenging the monster for his horrible deeds and for not-deserved worldwilde publicity which makes those women and girls look like a statistics.
And that’s my way of apologizing them – that over the last decade I paid more attention to monster than to humans he took.
But, to me – trying to bring them to full life – is kind of a very spiritual experience cleansing and satisfying.
In my opinion what Kevid did in his book is not very different – he just wanted to save them in their very last moment – but he still wanted to real SAVE them from being forgotten – and when mentioning them – he chooses the most caring word he can find.
My only difference is that I finally found Bundy loathing, disgusting and undeserving studying (plus he was studied 100 times) – and I shifted my interest on “victims” (I hate the word “victims” because it builds automatic reference to the killer – which the most important thing that I want to avoid in what I am trying to do).
But this creepy shadow is still hovering over me – and its unavoidable.
regards
Bart
Hi everyone,
Well, I guess I am going through what Kevin described earlier as TBO (Ted Bundy Overload) myself. I had avoided all acknowledgement of Bundy books, news, hype, films, etc. for a very long time, for reasons I have explained in previous posts. I very much appreciate the positive comments I have received from many of you, and I am pleased to have been able to put a face on Kathy Parks rather than have her be seen as a mere statistic.
I explained to Kevin, when he first invited me to participate here, that I had some apprehensions. Specifically, I did not want to ever return to the fear and insecurity that enveloped my life for the many years following Kathy’s abduction and murder. I have read through all of the posts here, and for the most part, find you all to be a group of intellegent, inquisative and sensitive people.
Right now I am going through a bit of discomfort and uncertainty as to whether or not it is emotionally in my best interest to continue being a part of this forum. With that in mind, and with my apologies, I am going to take a couple of days off and see how I feel about it. I hope you understand.
Lorraine
Hi Monica–
Yes, that’s why Bundy is still an interest of the public today. How could a handsome and articulate law student do such vile things to people?
Hi Ted–
Actually, the more I learned about the women Bundy killed, the more real it became. As such, I would find myself “getting to know” them, one might say, and I knew I would carry a part of them with me all the days of my life. You just can’t sift through the background of folks without feeling you know them. Conversations they had previously with loved ones only days before they disappeared and now contained in police reports, careers they were working towards, etc. So yes, there were times when I became very disgusted with what I was viewing, but it’s like anything else in life that is unpleasant and with which we have to deal: Just do it!
It didn’t color my approach to humanity as a whole, but I did find myself thinking about Bundy’s ability to hide the monster within for so long, and how many (sociopaths / killers) are walking free among us today.
Take care, my friend!
Kevin
Kevin, I think I’ll pass! I’ve often wonder how someone like yourself – a decent family man making an honest wage – could spend two years sifting through such carnage like what Bundy’s actions caused. Was there ever a time when you just had to take a few days off from the project to breath deeply and remind yourself that the majority of people in this world are decent, law-abiding folks who would rather help than harm a stranger?
Yes, that helps a great deal. You couldn’t have put it any better, thanks, Kevin!
Perhaps he was so dead inside, that the only thing (in his sick mind) that could compensate for this emptiness, was reliving his fantasies over and over again. The thing that i find the most terrifying, is that someone so outwardly attractive (desirable even), charming and personable, could house, inside, such sickness and depravity.
Ted–
Maybe this new book’s a job for you, LOL!
I think I might be have an acute case of TBO (Ted Bundy Overload), LOL!
Hi Monica–
The full dynamics which made Bundy a killer may never be known. Notice I said the ‘full dynamics’, and that’s what I mean.
A few points of reference: When Bundy was about 3, he placed kitchen knives around his aunt’s body while she slept in bed. That the knives were pointing at her, speaks of a violent image in Ted’s mind being expressed in reality by that which he did. So it is clear that very serious problems pertaining to women and violence were a part of the lad’s life even then. Now we can wonder and debate WHY Bundy had a problem with women, but we can never know for a certainty. it’s all speculation.
Now, as Bundy’s libido came to the place where normal sexual expression was to occur, he was unable to go the way of normal human beings, because he had a defect within in him that wanted to destroy women. NOT ONLY THAT: But Bundy enjoyed the sexual thrill he received when contemplating doing bad things to them. And then the fantasy involved murder; and then the fantasy involved necrophilia; then the fantasy involved the removing of heads for use at home…and we could go on further still. And like Ted Montgomery said above, his fantasies of sex and violence were linked, and that is the truth.
The use of alcohol to “jump start” Bundy in to that stream of murder, was born out of, I believe, that last bit of normal thinking he possessed which understood that it was wrong to kill, and perhaps also, the natural nervousness he may have experienced by doing such a thing and the need to escape detection. Having these thoughts, however, is not the same as not wanting to kill. Bundy loved murder, and he had no intention of stopping, ever.
I hope this helps, Monica…
Kevin
Kevin, I’m glad to be back and joining in the conversation. Your book is really, really good and stands up well to the scrutiny that comes with reading it a couple of times!
Monica, your theory makes a lot of sense. I think it’s likely that things transpired in Bundy’s early life much like you propose in your theory. How sad, for everyone.
Loraine, your contriibution to these conversations has been tremendous, for you can share a perspective that none of the rest of us have. You have been personally touched by Bundy’s hideous actions, and I can’t imagine the emotional upheaval that has caused you over the years. It’s one thing to read about Bundy’s crimes in a book from the safety of an easy chair in your living room; it’s quite another to actually have personally felt the sting and the reality of his actions. Thank you for sharing your recollections.
It seems to me that if you took the stories of survivors of Bundy’s victims, and put it together wth the recollections of those women who narrowly escaped his clutches, that would be a book that would interest readers. We only ever talk about Ted Bundy, and not the innocent people he killed. That seems wrong, somehow. A book like that could serve as affirmation for those who struggle with being victims, or loving victims.
Kevin, get right on it, will you? 🙂
That last paragraph was meant to read:
The “why’s” are what interest me the most, but, like you said, to truly understand his repellent behaviour one is required to try and imagine doing what he did; to get inside his head, and to go down that road would be crossing the line.
Thanks for that, Ted! Your theory makes a lot of sense. Yes, it is evident that sex and violence for Ted was inextricably bound, and that brings me to my own theory of where this may have stemmed from. It is clear that he was displaying signs of an abnormal psyche, as far back as early childhood. The knives incident comes to mind, as does the recollection, by his great aunt, of Ted morphing into, without warning, this strange alter-ego (some new information highlighted in Kevin’s book.) It is my opinion that Ted experienced an episode (or more) of severe abuse (anywhere between early infancy to the point of the knives incident.) And i am inclined to believe that this abuse was both sexual and violent in nature, thus the two becoming inextricably linked in his mind. That could also explain the two very separate identities residing in one individual; the abuse could have caused a split in his psyche, which would account for the Jekyl and Hyde nature. Maybe, if this happened when he was very young, it was completely blocked out and he later had no memory of it. But his deep feelings would have to come out some way, and they would be expressed in his violent and sexual acts, years later. Of course this is only speculation, and i am not a psychologist.
The “whys” are what interested me the most, but, like you said, to truly understand his repellent behaviour one is required to try and imagine what he did; to get inside his head, and to go down that road would be crossing the line.
Hi Ted! It’s good to hear from you, as it’s been way too long!!
And thanks for the good word about my book. I really appreciate them.
Monica,
Kevin will have a far more cogent response to your question than I could ever begin to cobble together, but I have a personal theory about this. I believe in the development of Bundy’s personality, somewhere his libido – sex drive, if you will – came to include extreme violence as a part of his sexual expression. In other words, the two were inextricably bound. He could not have gratifying sex if it did not include violence, and in many cases, death.
For most of us (hopefully!), the desire to express ourselves sexually is healthy and follows the contours of what society regards as normal sexual conduct. For Bundy, the violence was the thing that drove him.
This is very difficult for us to understand because it’s so off the charts of normal behavior. Trying to understand this repellent behavoir requires us to try to imagine doing what Bundy did, and that’s a road I’m sure most of us don’t want to go down.
That’s just a theory of mine, and because I am not trained as a psychiatrist or psychologist my theory is really not based on the hard science of the human mind at all. It just makes sense to me.
Kevin and Bart, point taken, lol.
In regards to what Bill Hagmaier told you, Kevin. (Ted stating that he killed because he WANTED to kill) speaks volumes of his deranged state of mind.
I have a question: This business of Ted cultivating his fantasies; feeding his desires, is something i’m having a hard time trying to understand; get my head around (no pun intended here), and also the need for a jump start to carry out his dastardly deeds. Why would he willingly feed his sick impulses (through fantasy) at every given opportunity; why would he consciously embrace the darkness within, and if he needed some sort of kick-start to act them out, why did he even bother? Obviously this is explained in your book, Kevin, but for some reason i am not getting it. Could you elaborate further on this, in a way that will make sense to me?
Good post Ted. I agree with most, if not all, of your assertions. The FBI has been very public with that number of 35 homicides. This is the FBI talking, not some tabloid newspaper. I feel the FBI has names and situations that lead them to believe Bundy was the perpertrator in all those 35 cases.
The New Jersey slayings in ’69 are an example. When Ted was executed, the parents of both girls had been spoken to by both the FBI and NJ detectives. One of the parents made a statement that the authorities had basically arrived at the conclusion that Ted was the killer of those girls. The case was too thin to bring an indictment. But the police wanted the parents to know that Bundy’s execution was to bring some justice for the girls’ killing.
Can’t help but wonder if other parents recieved similar information, but nothing was ever said publically.
Hi all,
I haven’t checked in for quite some time, but I’ve periodically kept up with the posts. This has been such a great discussion for a long period of time. Virtually no stone has been unturned in the search for further enlightenment and truth regarding the terrible life of Ted Bundy.
With so much having been written about Bundy over the years, I’m always amazed and chagrined at some the erroneous information that gets bandied about regarding his life and crimes. Kevin, you’ve done a remarkable job of separating the wheat from the chaff, the fact from the fallacy. Your book is outstanding and if there are still some holdouts who have yet to pick up a copy, get thee to your on-line bookseller at once. You won’t be disappointed.
Regarding the number of murders Bundy committed, alas, we will never no for sure. I can promise you, though, that it was more than the 35 usually attributed to him. Way more. Bob Keppel still believes he killed more than 100 women and girls. Bob may not be that far off.
One thing we can say for certain, Bundy began his killing career many years before his “heyday” in 1974. I believe he killed Rita Jolly and Vicki Hollar in Oregon in 1973, and I believe he killed two coeds in Jersey City, New Jersey on Memorial Day weekend in 1969. He may have also been responsible for the deaths of Joyce LePage and Nancy Winslow in Washington state in 1970 and ’71. He also killed, I believe, Sandra Weaver in Utah in 1975. His MO was employed in all of these cases, and even the police in their respective jurisdictions believed that Bundy committed these crimes…they just couldn’t prove it. So you can see, he was likely a very active killer years before he went on the murderous jag he’s most famous for in 1974-75.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are crimes generally attributed to Bundy that I believe he did not commit. Keppel told me that Bundy couldn’t have killed Carol Valenzuela because his travel records show he was not near where she was abducted that day. Bundy also vociferously denied killing Nancy Baird, and the evidence to connect him to Melanie Cooley is paper thin.
It seems to me that for every known victim of Bundy’s there are likely two more that we don’t know about. Scary thought for all of us.
As for Kathy Parks birthday – regardless if she was 22 or 20 at the time she left.
I think if Lorraine met and befriended Kathy Parks as a Freshman OSU at the beginning of winter term (October/November 1973) and the last time she saw Kathy early May 1974 – plus Lorraine doesn’t mention and doesn’t remember Kathy birthday party (I am sure such a fun-loving girl like Kathy would be pleased to give a birthday party to her friends) – that we can conclude Kathy birthday is somewhere between May and October.
Just a trivia – but important in term to memories of Kathy.
Plus imagine how dark was Kathy 21s birthday – for her family and friends,
with no sign from her and with no knowledge of her remains whereabouts.
Now to Lorraine (as I have extra 10 minutes spare time)
You knew Kathy boyfriend Christy McPhee who at the time of her disappearance was working as scuba dive instructor in Louisiana and was expected the following week in Cornaliss to discuss with Kathy “serious commitment”.
I know from Kevin book and your accounts they made a serious loving couple (as serious as 20 year old kids could be) with Christy special serious about marriage.
If it is not too painful for you – can you tell me / tell us (as I can discover here on this web page more and more folks really sympathising with you and those female beings long gone) how Christy McPhee was dealing with what happened to Kathy?
Was he trying to lead some kind of private investigation? Did he blame himself somehow to what happened to her? Did the discovery of August 1975 devastate him? Did he finally find peace and established family and kids? Did you and him maintain contact each other after the events?
I know some of the questions might be too private, but I really feel for him – and although – if he hopefully still walks on earth – must be around 60 now – but I think he still holds some pain inside.
Best regard, Lorraine
Bart
Hi, Kevin and all
Can I ask you are you familiar with some paper available on the Internet – I think it is somebody’s master thesis on psychology (now I am in too much hurry to google that) that claims theory that this whole “knife incident” in Bundy early childhood – was just a the tip of the iceberg.
This paper points out the deranged and violent Samuel Cowell, Bundy’s grandfather (or maybe incestuous father) as not only Bundy role model in treating women harshly but also a big personal coach and teacher to violence.
Who knows what really Cowell did to his women (wife, daughters) aside from abusing them verbally, beating them, pushing down the stairs, throwing things at?
It is a suspicion that during his formative years – up age of 4.5 – Bundy not only “saw” a lot and also in time – was invited by “GrandPa” to assist him with violent shows towards women (possible including knives too).
The paper emphasizes the fact that Bundy’s mother Louise – at some stage – was so strongly determined, even panicked – to leave family house – at any cost – in order to keep little Bundy away from his GrandDad / Dad.
So there might had been about this. You know – like (grand) father, like son
Plus, this paper says – when incarcerated, Bundy always claimed his Philadelphia family life was “perfect” – as we all know he as an accomplished liar – so it is highly likely – it was quite opposite. Or in another word – the atmosphere at family home was “perfect” to Bundy – as in a sense a “perfect” to create a ruthless woman killer.
Anyway – there are still a lot of questions – that probably will never be answered.
Now I gotta go to work – but by the afternoon I will google for us this document – as it is free to download.
See you later.
PS:
Kevin, maybe I omitted something on this forum – but what’s your opinion on the theory that Bundy was in fact born through incestuous act by Samuel on his daughter Louise. Such kids sometimes appear to be normal but inside might might be marked by many dark flaws.
Monica– Bill Hagmaier told me that Bundy told him something close to the following: “People need to understand that I killed because I wanted to kill”. and again: “I was going to keep killing people until somebody stopped me.” Both of these statements were told to me over the phone by Bill, and are accurate according to the memory I have (and what I have written down, LOL!).
It would have been the most dangerous thing in the world to have housed Ted Bundy in a mental hospital. On Florida’s death row he was isolated and then he was killed. Had he been placed on some mental ward in an attempt to “help” him, he no doubt would have escaped and killed again.
But guess what? He was unable to kill again on the morning of January 25, 1989. For the first time in years, he became a good Ted Bundy.
Hi All,
In RE: to Ted being executed vs incarceration/hospitalization I guess your personal view on the death penalty has a huge influence. In our current judicial system, I do not believe in the death penalty because as the Innocence Project has verified there are innocent people incarcerated. And there is inequality in representation. However, with the advent of DNA testing and more uniform laws requiring these tests perhaps we’ll see less injustice.
If anyone deserved the death penalty for the severity of the crimes and the possiblity if free to commit more murders it was TB. But no parole board would ever release him and I think the chances of him escaping a state penitentiary were dim. If there were a true chance of him ever being released than I too would have advocated the death penalty for TB.
And if we as a society deem an eye for an eye is something we owe the families for them to achieve closure than I’m more ambiguous thankfully, never having been in their position. I lean toward thinking as a society we shouldn’t but I’m not rigid on that position recognizing the families’ pain is unique and foreign to me.
TB stands out as a serial killer with his capacity to explain his thought process. Would he ever give us all the info? Probably not. And would he have given ANY of it without the threat of death? Again, probably not. Yet, I think it was worth the study.
I have to say, as vicious as TB’s crimes were I find for ex. a spouse that kills their spouse for personal gain much more deserving of a severe penalty. Although, as you stated Kevin, TB knew his actions were wrong, I do not believe he had control of them.
As a side note, I started college in 1981 in VT. I often walked home alone from the library in the early hours of the morning. And I can guarantee that if I saw someone struggling ahead of me with books because of an injury, I would have assisted them. By now this was his known modus operandi, shouldn’t this have been taught to students in Freshman Initiation in case of copy cats? I know I didn’t hear of it until reading Ann’s book.
Sabrina
Interesting issue – but if kept alive – what would we really learn from this “entity”?
I once read interview with Bob Keppel.
I think it is published on crimelibraty website afterwards renamed to http://www.trutv.com
Let’s listen:
Q. In your opinion, is it better to execute killers like Bundy or keep them alive in the hope that we can study them and perhaps learn something that may be used to prevent similar crimes in the future?
A:
If all I do is look at Ted Bundy, I think to myself — I’m glad he’s dead because I’m not so sure what we would have learned from him if he was alive. I’m not so sure he would have cooperated that much and “told us all,” like he said he would if we’d have kept him alive. I know one thing, he had a history of always being in escape mode in prison. He had already escaped twice and on two other occasions, he was found with escape implements in his cell, once in Utah and once in Florida. His whole life was pointed towards escape and once he escaped, he’d kill again. Now he can’t do that.
For that part of it, I’m glad he’s gone but another part of me says that we do not know anything about this type of people because, number one, it is not in their best interests to help us to understand them because they are either appealing their sentence or their case or whatever so it’s not in their best interest to even begin talking about themselves. I think that we do need to study these people but I don’t know how you do it. There are countries that don’t have the death penalty but they still have a number of these people in prison, but how do you make them cooperate? These people are liars. They’ve been lying their whole life and they have a different mask because they are liars. If you ever get them into a position where you are studying them, how do you know when they are telling the truth? You can’t give them a polygraph — they’re not capable. That’s why I’ve always criticized the F.B.I study of their thirty-six sexual murderers. What they did was study thirty-six liars. How can you prove that anything any of those guys had to say was true? That especially applied to their backgrounds because the people that could corroborate that information were either dead or gone. So here you have a bunch of guys talking about their background and the F.B.I. is believing them.
Lorraine, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and memories with us.
Hi Sabrina! Some very interesting points you raised there. And although the question is addressed to Kevin, i hope you (or he) don’t mind me chiming in.
Quote:
“maybe this is one specimen we should have kept alive to study? That was my impression at the time and remains so today. I realize in a way it would be rewarding TB but didn’t we cut off our hand to spite our arm?”
It would indeed be rewarding Ted (because he would have given his right arm to live), but i personally believe that life in prison is punishment enough. And, for those that believe it was right for him to be executed…all though it must have been a painful end, it was a very quick one; over in a couple of minutes. With all the interest out there in him (even now after twenty one years), it is my personal opinion that we did indeed “cut off our hand to spite our arm.”
You are right about the insanity issue. It is clear now that Ted was, although not legally insane, he was demented, psychologically. To be totally consumed by fantasies of murder on a daily basis, and to then go out and murder and have sex with the victims corpses (believing in his mind that they were now a couple), speaks of someone who has given leave to his senses, lost all touch with reality. And i think you are correct when you say that he could not NOT murder, that it was not a choice for him. Of course, nobody was holding a gun to his head, but psychologically the need to kill, the addiction to kill, was so tremendously strong that he just couldn’t control it. He did some terribly heinous things (and they can not be excused), but he had a condition. He was seriously mentally sick. And one has to wonder, should he have in fact been kept in a place for the mentally sick, as opposed to prison on death row.
hi Sabrina–
First, thanks for purchasing my book! Please let me know what you think of it after you’ve finished reading it, will you?
Bundy did make it clear to investigators, that he never wanted to hurt anyone he knew. And what he means is this: For fantasy purposes, and for what he wanted to do, he needed someone he didn’t really know. These are my words, but this is what he meant to say. BUT, and this is a big “but” the “monster” he was unleashing on the world became increasingly harder and harder to conceal. So whatever was happening to him with Liz, was a real manifestation, and it was all he could do to contain it. I don’t believe under “normal” circumstances he would have wanted to harm Liz, but it almost happened anyway.
Also, Bundy, as a sociopath, understood what he was doing was wrong, evidenced by his desire in the early years to conceal all his activities from the world, and to not leave any trace evidence behind at the crime scenes. And he was good at doing this. Later, (and you will see this in my book) he got sloppy in his murders, and he left evidence everywhere. The monster was getting out of control. So as a sociopath, he knew right from wrong, he just didn’t care about what society had to say about what he was doing. But he knew it was immoral.
And no, I don’t believe the confusing of his mother for his sister, etc, made Ted into what he became. It was not good, but it is not to blame, either, in my opinion.
Take care,
Kevin
Let me correct that last part, we DO owe more to the families than the victimizers but is that reflected in our judicial laws?
Hi Kevin et al,
I’ve been lurking for a few days now but I didn’t want to post anything until I read all the posts in fear of repeating a question or thought. Done, I’ve read up to post 1807!
First, a little background. A couple of weeks ago I was clearing out my basement for a charity collection and I came upon Ann Rule’s book A Stranger Beside Me. I believe I read it when it first came out in paperback, I KNOW I read it before Bundy was executed in 1989. Anyway, I picked it up again and realized I still had many unanswered questions so I believe I headed to Amazon and through Amazon found this thread.
Initially, I was leary of it because a lot of the pop culture fascination with Bundy stems from some sort of anti hero idolization. I was gratified to read in this thread thoughtful analysis of what made Bundy ‘tick”.
I was living in Fl at the time of Bundy’s execution and it was indeed a media circus. The reports coming from Starke hinted of a desperate countdown to beat the clock and get as much info from Ted as possible. I realize TB was manipulating for time and considering his confessions there isn’t the normal death penalty argument of executing an innocent man but if there was so much interest from law enforcement and the psychiatric field, maybe this is one specimen we should have kept alive to study? That was my impression at the time and remains so today. I realize in a way it would be rewarding TB but didn’t we cut off our hand to spite our arm?
Of course, after the first 35 posts I had to buy Kevin’s book and with EXPRESS DELIVERY. I’m only half way through but I couldn’t contain myself from posting any longer.
I have the following thoughts/questions: The raft incident with Liz, when he throws her overboard and she sees him staring blankly at her made me question how long he could have kept his “moral barometer” of not killing anyone he was well acquainted with? I suspect regardless of the circumstances TB’s illness would have continued to deteriorate. And at one point maybe even Liz would be endangered.
I’ve often read comments specially from law enforcement underming TB’s intelligence by citing his poor showing as his own lawyer. Yet, I don’t consider this a fair assessment. Aside from TB having attended very few law classes because of his chronic absenteeism, he also had conflicting interests. While he certainly wanted to prove his innocence to gain his freedom, I think maybe he had reached a stage where he enjoyed the infamy of his crimes and wanted to continue to allude to his culpability. Before his discovery he probably thought he’d be shuned and shamed and instead he became a pseudo media darling.
And lastly, I don’t think some people realize the extent of TB’s insanity. Recently, someone suggested to me that his mother’s lie of being his sister was the overriding motive. He hated his mother therefore he killed women. While a lie like that may test your trust in women, it would hardly cause a normal person to kill and perform necrophilia. They were suprised about the necrophilia and in hindsight I don’t think there was much media reportage about it at the time. Was it too taboo for the mainstream media?
And how is criminal insanity defined? I think TB’s insanity was so great he could not NOT murder. It wasn’t a choice for him.
He wasn’t killing for monetary gain, he was just that sick. And if that is the case, is execution a fitting punishment for that man or is it done more as some sort of compensation and closure fo the families? Perhaps we do owe more to the families than the victimzers.
Lorraine, it’s touching and very brave of you to expose your pain, I hope you’ve found the peace you deserve.
Sabrina
Oh I have made such a mistake!
The Dayton Tribune was local paper (closed in 2006) from Dayton, Oregon not Dayton, Ohio. 🙂
And Dundee – Miriam Joan Schmidt home city – is of course also in Oregon.
In the same county as Dayton: Yamhill County.
Now, that makes sense.
And now I am 100 % sure that Miriam Joan Schmidt who graduated from OSU in 1979 was former Kathy Parks roommate
I kindly apologize for this Ohio bull-shitting.
Lorraine herself said in one of her posts that most of OSU students were native Oregionans.
Some trivia indirectly regarding Kathy Parks, surely interesting for Lorraine and maybe for other folks on this webpage.
Here is the link to “The Dayton Tribune” note from May 1979 announcing: Dayton Residents Receive Degress from University”.
Although it is Ohio newspaper it covers Oregon State University best graduates.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=977&dat=19790531&id=O_UkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MBEGAAAAIBAJ&pg=1644,414650
As you read – you can find remark about Miriam Joan Schmidt graduating Bachelor of Science from forestry.
The paper says – she is from Dundee – which I identified a incorporated community in Ohio.
Probably, she is Kathy’s roommate from 1973/74 school year at OSU, referred to us by Lorraine as “Bunny”.
Lorraine, Just been reading your recent posts. You were NEVER an emotional/mental basket case. The way all of this affected you is perfectly understandable, under such circumstances. You are a very strong woman, and i am sure Kathy would be proud of you.
Thanks for uploading that picture, KYGB! Shocking! The man behind the mask, stripped bare for all to see. I doubt he’d even be able to charm a cockroach, looking like that.
Kevin, this book is fascinating, unputdownable!
Hallo Lorraine,
Thank you for all!
Funny story about this “Kathy has ID” at the dorm. 🙂
She must have been funny girl 🙂
And no – you are never putting Kathy in bad light – you are bringing her to LIGHT, you are actually bringing Kathy back to LIFE.
Don’t worry about Kathy “funny photos” that are missing.
Maybe, “God willing” some day – with some effort – I can return them to you.
I am looking forward to your email at my bbiernacki71@gmail.com – e-mail box – but of course – there is no hurry 🙂
Good night or maybe I should say good morning – as I am writing this post at 3 pm my time – which probably means 6 am your time 🙂
Best regards to you
Bart
Bart,
I will email you after I get some sleep, (its 3:15 AM here). I am sad to say that the few pictures I had of Kathy (pictures of us visiting in her dorm room, with friends, dressing up as ‘chicks’…. yes, I mean BABY CHICKENS, all yellow and fluffy, complete with beaks… for a frat party that’s invitation said ‘all chicks welcome’, Kathy playing the flute…) were all given to Christy when he came up to OSU for his planned visit, the week following Kathy’s disappearance. The idea was that he would take them to have copies made and then return them to me. They were taken with a Poloroid Instamatic camera, very popular in the ’70s, and thus had no negatives. Unfortunately, the pictures were never returned to me, and I have no others. This is especially unfortunate because it seems the only picture of Kathy to be found anywhere is the “missing person” poster picture which, we have already determined, shows a troubled and melancholy young lady. I really wish I could share the fun, happy pictures showing Kathy laughing, smiling and being silly. THAT is the Kathy I remember!
Lorraine
Hello all,
Bart, I hesitate to answer the question regarding Kathy’s birthdate, because, to my knowledge, Kathy was born in 1953, and was 20 years old at the time of her death. I know that if you do a google search for Kathy, as well as read the “Bundy books” most report her as being 22 (which would put her birth year in 1951) at the time she was murdered, while some report that she was 20. She did have an ID which showed that she was born in 1951 (for the same reason many young people obtain “extra” pieces of picture ID), but it was not her “real” ID, from what she told me. I am waivering on the month/day as well, so I’d just as soon leave the question unanswered rather than give erroneous information.
Kevin, where did you get the information that Kathy was 22 at the time of her death? I am wondering if police reports were simply going by the ID I am referring to rather than her actual date of birth. I know that if anyone in the dorm wanted alcohol purchased for them, it was suggested that “Kathy has an ID”, enabling her to purchase it, rather than, “Kathy is old enough” to purchase it. This is not to say that she made a habit of doing such things, but it was pretty common knowledge that “Kathy had an ID….”
I don’t mean to put Kathy in a bad light with this information. She was a conscientious and moral young lady, but she WAS a college student 🙂
Also, In response to Virginia, I have been over that question in my mind hundreds of times! In May of 1974 I was 18 years old, a college freshman, and so dangerously naive and trusting, I shudder to think how easily I could have been victimized by a “smooth talking” charismatic, good looking man under those circumstances… idle, friendly chat at the cafeteria…. I cringe at the thought…. (following Kathy’s abduction I went to the other extreme, however. I trusted NO ONE and it took me many years to find a healthy middle ground). Kathy, on the otherhand, was not terribly naive, and she would NOT simply throw caution to the wind and hop in the car with anyone who suggested it. I can only conclude that Bundy was very good at instilling trust with the ease in which he approached his victims, engaged them in small talk and managed to make them feel comfortable enough to agree to go with him.
Remembering the state of mind that Kathy was in: concern over her father’s heart attack, (which she felt responsible for, having argued with him the last time they spoke on the phone), guilt over not keeping up on her studies, confusion over the direction of her relationship with boyfriend, Christy, and his upcoming visit, and the fact that she had smoked hashish just before leaving the dorm to head for the Commons cafeteria, I think that Kathy was simply caught off guard.
Perhaps the thought of going for a drink and forgetting about all of it for a while was appealing. Perhaps she had talked to Bundy enough to think he might offer some insight (from the perspective of an “older guy”) on the perplexing problem of how to properly deal with Christy when he continued to press her for commitment. While none of this sounds like “typical Kathy”, I have to remind myself that the 2 to 3 days leading up to her disappearance were not “typical days” for her. I think all of us occassionally do things spontaneously that are somewhat out of character, and I think that is exactly what happened. It makes me cry, to this day, when I think about this, because Kathy was very rarely impulsive, and she couldn’t have picked a more horrible time to be so.
Bundy’s flippant remarks regarding Kathy in the 3rd person interview that you mentioned made me so angry when I first read them that I could hardly contain myself. “What was her name…?… Oh yes, Parks….Maybe he met her in the library, or the cafeteria….Would you like to go to Taylor Mountain…(giggle….)…” I literally ran to the bathroom to vomit, and it was a long time before I could resume reading the interview.
I should tell you, too, that most of you posting here actually have done far more research on Ted Bundy than I have. It wasn’t until I began corresponding with Kevin that I actually dared to read what has been written over the years. Prior to my correspondence with Kevin, the last thing I actually remember reading about Ted Bundy (intentionally) was the article in The Barometer (Oregon State University’s student newspaper) one morning in March of 1975. “Co-eds skull found….”. I ran out of my friend’s dorm room with his copy of the paper, and into my room, where I read the article. Shortly after that, having been unable to leave my room for classes or even meals (complete agorophobia had set in) for a couple of weeks, I left school. I am not the emotional/mental basket case now that I was then, but it took many years.
I thank Kevin, again, for helping me to finally deal with this. I can’t begin to express how helpful he has been. I am ready now, to finally know what there is to know, with an occassional “breather” between doses.
Lorraine
Hi, folks.
Just layman question if you don’t bother.
What was usually person’s age – back in 60s and 70s in the US (lets call this “bundy era”) – while they attended primary schools, secondary school (high-school) and university or college?
And how many years of school did it take – assuming
someone was focused and good student – not repeating
years or changing majors?
Was it established nationwide – or it depended on local (state) regulations?
Look, using me as an example – here in Poland – I underwent education from late 70s till mid-90s – I attended 9-year primary school (while I was 6 to 15 year old) 4-year high school (while I was 15-19 ) – then 5-year university, declaring major right from
the beginning (while I was 19-24). 18 years total 🙂
Nowadays, where I live – the education system here looks much different – and kids thankfully don’t have to spend proverbial “ages” at school to get a degree and look for a decent job.
But what was it like during back in 60s, 70s?
I don’t mention Bundy “academic career” – as this creep was indecisive and changing major or interests (China, urban planning, psychology , law) – and he studied (with some breaks) for 10 years.
Regards,
Bart
Hi, all
As I don’t want to disturb Lorraine on a daily basis :), today I am googling Internet in search of Kathy Parks.
Naturally, if Kathy is referred to somewhere – it is always in relation to her disappearance.
It is just oppositely to what I want to know:
Kathy as living, brilliant, person – far far away from fateful May 1974 night in Corvallis.
I’ve just found something very touching, but still linked to her disappearance, not to her “real life”
A note of reward offered by her family published in a local newspaper May 25 1974.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KQg0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=HvgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5012,4854139&dq=roberta+kathleen+parks&hl=en
Touching, huh?
Specially if you read about this Redmond cab driver who had thought to see Kathy “earlier this week hitch-hiking – with another girl”.
BTW – the value of 1500 US dollars back in 1974 must have been of much higher than now in 2010? Let’s multipy it by 4, right?
PS:
As for Victoria question regarding Bundy 3rd person account on Kathy abduction – I also think he might be bullshiting M & A. But who knows? Who knows what kind of ruse did he use – as he looked like charming “grad student of event young proffessor” to lure her into this vehicle? Afterall, why Kathy wouldn’t talk to him? Even in the middle of the night, specially she was little stoned and was in her “comfort zone”.